The way things are shaping up, Joe Biden's new vaccine mandate will spark two responses:¹
- In the red corner, we have the 10-15% of the population who considers the mandate little more than a fascist attempt by lefties to establish power and dominance over non-liberals.
- In the blue corner, we have the 70+% of the population that's been vaccinated and is sick and tired of being unable to go back to normal life because of continued COVID-19 outbreaks caused by pigheaded anti-vaxxers.
The question is, which of these will prove to be a more powerful political force? I think Biden is assuming that the anti-vaxxers will never vote for Democrats anyway, so pissing them off costs him nothing. Conversely, he figures that the folks who are vaccinated are really, really tired of the anti-vaxx antics and ready to support a Democratic initiative to just lay down the law. On net, then, Democrats will win support by getting tough on vaccinations.
This will be especially true if Republicans go to the mats in their opposition to vaccinations. They want to be known as the anti-mandate party, but if the nutbag caucus wins the PR fight they're going to become the anti-vaccination party whether they like it or not.
¹Three if you count the always-popular "Whatever."
Amen.
Biden wins politically if the mandate is effective in raising vax rates high enough to have a major impact on the pandemic.
It doesn't matter how high it goes. It will always be around. Your inability to move on is sad.
Becoming endemic does not preclude the issue of a novel virus decimating a community of conservati...
oh, I get your point now.
dude, why are you even here? does it give you joy to post nonsense on a blog where no one gives a damn about anything you say and all the responses are ridicule?
Your inability to fuck off is sad.
Haw!
He needs more practice, clearly.
No, he knows positivity has fallen sharply, cases are declining, hospitalization has peaked. 2 more weeks covid begins fading from headlines. Biden looks desperate. He was a month off.
Sounds like you’re saying Biden’s timing is perfect to knock out Desantis, Abbott and Noem. I suspect you’re right.
I originally thought this summer we’d see the economy post a huge rebound. If you want to conspire to push the miracle rebound into the election year of 2022, well, as Liz Warren says, bless your heart. Now pass the pro-choice mobilization, please, would you? 😉
It already has had a huge rebound. Your not paying attention.
You’re, not your. Learn better English, troll.
As much as it pains me, I'll have to offer a (possible) defense of the troll: Autocorrect doesn't ... work the way it's supposed to on an android phone. Sometimes. If he's posting from a sit-down machine there's no excuse, of course.
Seems like mandating vaccines for interstate (non-car) travel would be a slam dunk, but perhaps there's no legal hook (absent congressional legislation), as there is with OSHA?
It seems politically adroit, agreed. It might well do considerable good, and, in the event it's thrown out by a (right wing) court, it further implicates MAGA/GOP.
Biden's numbers are down because of the Delta Wave--which is mainly due to the unvaccinated. The point of people holding unpopular positions is not to modify their stance, but to drag everyone else down into the mud with them. How do I win with only 30% support? Get 40% of the people so fed up that they don't show up to vote.
Exactly. That was McConnell's gambit when Obama was elected. Make government grind to a halt, so everyone gets frustrated, some blaming Obama and the rest just giving up on government and not voting. And it worked.
It didn't exactly work. Obama was reelected.
I'd modify that to say "Biden wins politically if the mandate is effective in reducing the other measures being taken because of the pandemic."
As long as there are mask mandates, the perception that vaccination isn't helping much will persist.
A win-win for Biden. 70+% of the population agrees with getting vaccinated. And the other 30%? We will deal with them once they are injected with 5G microchips.
Well yeah, why do you think we've been putting chips in horse dewormer?
Seriously, though, what IS it with "microchips"? Leaving aside the fact that they're clearly visible, not microscopic, getting a tiny bit of plastic injected into your bloodstream somehow results in your brain being taken over ... how, exactly? And if it really works, why haven't we used it on, say, incurable psychopaths?
Really, the childishness -- really almost infantile nature -- of Republicans never ceases to amaze ...
and how will "they" replace the batteries in the microchips?
They run off body heat (ducks again.)
“They” won’t have to. You see, what you fail to realize is that problem was solved back in the 1960s by TPC and “The President’s Analyst” was a thinly/veiled documentary: https://youtu.be/BuwF3dRJiS8 …
Those chips are said to turn you into a Rabbi (do I have to specify Jewish?) for a good half-hour or so (ducks.)
Hey, some people have a preternatural capacity to believe all kinds of nonsense. I know a woman who, at one time, was promoting some kind of "superwater", which differed from the stuff coming out of the tap because it had been treated to cause all of its electrons to spin around in the same direction.
They siphon the power of your soul!
And then they secretly copy your soul down to it's smallest detail.
Then they suck your soul dry until it whithers and fades and seeps away.
Then they replace it with the exact copy they made.
So no one will know, and that's how they get away with cheating god.
((( George Soros ))) & Bill "Pizza" Gates present Bladerunner2022.
Is the broccoli-craving subroutine ready to roll out?
I believe Biden is motivated by the sheer exhaustion of seeing people die for no good reason.
Regarding the political ramifications, I'd guess Biden sees his fate resting with the economy. For a booming economy we'll need better control over Covid. Therefore, we need mandates, popular or not.
In any case, polls show employer mandates will be highly popular. The issue is freedom: the freedom of the vast majority to breathe w/o fearing they'll catch a deadly disease vs. the freedom of the asshole minority to spread a deadly disease with impunity. This will go down as the stupidest hill to die on for a political party in the history of stupid hills to die on. Republican pols are far stupider than even Trump.
Polls in five swing states on employer mandates:
https://twitter.com/FrankLuntz/status/1436133511316979719?s=20
𝗔𝗿𝗶𝘇𝗼𝗻𝗮
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32
𝗚𝗲𝗼𝗿𝗴𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 63%
• Oppose: 37
𝗠𝗶𝗰𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗮𝗻
• Favor: 61%
• Oppose: 39
𝗣𝗲𝗻𝗻𝘀𝘆𝗹𝘃𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗮
• Favor: 64%
• Oppose: 36
𝗪𝗶𝘀𝗰𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗻
• Favor: 68%
• Oppose: 32
But the stupid pols are playing to a reliably stupid constituency and they need only enough votes in their gerrymandered districts to keep their jobs. Here in Alabama it's like no matter how bad it gets it will never get bad enough to change minds. Governor Ivey is an example; couple weeks ago she made news by hinting at holding the unvaccinated responsible. Today she's a freedom fighter defending against Biden.
Alabama is not a swing state. Who cares if they off themselves?
They can’t even remove the requirement for segregated schools from their state constitution.
"I believe Biden is motivated by the sheer exhaustion of seeing people die for no good reason."
I'm starting to think this is Biden's primary motivation as President. (See: Afghanistan.) It ain't a bad motivation for the President of the United States to have.
Only in America could “seeing people die” not be automatically viewed as something a politician or political party should want to avoid as much as possible.
Not shocked the Wolverine Watched state is lowest on pro-vaxxx.
Lolz, "lefties"??? Nope. They generally don't support vaccines by capitalism in general. Maybe, put aside dialectical nonsense.
Fuck. Off. Troll.
What is, is. Your not a "lefty". Drum screwed up there.
It's "you're," slow learner.
Percent of adult Democrats vaxxed: 88%
Blacks: 76%
Latinos: 71%
Whites: 66%
Republicans: 55%
Trump voters: 50%
Well....on NPR and MSM
1. Complaints that they said we didn't need a third booster months ago, and now they say we do....
2. And...if this is such a good idea, why didn't they do it earlier?
Yes, the response will change as we learn more and the situation changes. Yes, that can be frustrating.
The Republicans have been very good at channeling people's frustrations at others while they aggravate the problems people have. Maybe this will stick to them.
I can't even imagine what these people would have been like if they had been around for the polio vaccine in 1955.
"First they say the vaccine is safe, but then they say it's responsible for infecting hundreds of children so they tell us it's NOT safe. But now they say it's safe again! WHICH IS IT, HUNH?"
How was the American public so much less stupid 70 years ago?
Rupert Murdoch hadn’t yet figured out how to make billions by promoting white supremacy and other associated idiocy.
Joke 'em if they can't take a f*ck!
Fact: The Pfizer Covid vaccine study had more death in the vaccine group than the placebo group. (Supplementary appendix page 12 table s4)
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v1
Fact: In the corporate Covid vaccines studies the group given the injections experienced more all cause morbidity and worse health.
https://www.scivisionpub.com/pdfs/us-covid19-vaccines-proven-to-cause-more-harm-than-good-based-on-pivotal-clinical-trial-data-analyzed-using-the-proper-scientific--1811.pdf
"the mandate little more than a fascist"
What else do you call forcing people to take corporates drugs?
"unable to go back to normal life because of continued COVID-19 outbreaks caused by pigheaded anti-vaxxers."
This is the same reasoning as the guy yelling that everyone needs to get drunk because that's the only way the vodka will make him feel good.
Anyone who actually wants to consider the evidence can go to ourworlddata and see that overall in countries higher mortality rates follow Covid vaccinations. Many of the highest Covid vaccination countries have archived the same amount of Covid cases and mortality than before vaccination (Mongolia, Israel, Seychelles, United Arab emirates, Iceland etc).
WHERE did you get your pot, man? That is AMAZING stuff. Pass the roach, dude.
Your talking about millions of Americans taking vaccines vs lowly hundreds which have taken a horse dewormer. But when you adjust for population of both trials, vaccines did better, largely. I will never take the artificial mrna vaccines. It has a small chance of giving you lymphoma. Something even it's founders admit. On the other hand, the Jansen(JJ) version pushes your body to do it like the seasonal flu shot. Take some chelators like nac or ala to get rid of the industrial chemicals.
Have you misunderstood issue with lymphoma?
Most lymphoma patients should receive the COVID-19 vaccine as soon as it is available because studies have shown that blood cancer patients may be at higher risk for negative outcomes from COVID-19 infection than the general population. However, given that some lymphoma treatments might affect the efficacy of a vaccine (by impacting the immune system), lymphoma patients and survivors should consult their oncologist or healthcare team prior to receiving the COVID-19 vaccine – particularly if they are in the midst of lymphoma treatment or have had it recently (e.g. within the last 6-12 months). Some healthcare providers may suggest that some patients wait a period of time after their last treatment before receiving the vaccine. Studies at this point suggest that the COVID-19 vaccines are safe for even those who have underlying health conditions (with the rare exception of some of those with a history of severe allergic reactions).
https://lymphoma.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-update-2/
In this case it's more likely deliberately attempting to confuse the issue than genuine misunderstanding. But useful info, thanks.
I think he/she may be referencing these studies finding around 10% of people who get the Covid vaccines receive lymph node problems/abnormalities.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/radiology/diagnosticradiology/92800
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8217971/
Again, you use “your” when you mean “you’re.” Learn English if you’re going to troll us here in America. Or just fuck off and die.
uhh, I mean yeah, this guy is an annoying troll, but "learn English if you're gonna be in America or die" isn't a great counterpoint.
It's called a "pad" fool. I am not typing. It changes things and I don't have time to edit.
“I don’t have time to edit.”
Hilarious!
FOAD, troll.
Was oakchair this unhinged on Kevin's MoJo blog, or is this an impersonator?
I was wondering the same thing. This seems like an abrupt shift.
Looks like an impersonator. And not a very good one.
Yes, I got into several discussions with him/her back then because he'd go into unhinged anti-vax tirades (not just about COVID, but vaccines in general), always distorting what the studies he is presenting (like in this case), or flat out not understanding what he/she read and coming up with nonsensical conclusions which are the opposite of what things really are.
It's not just me then. Thanks for the confirmation. BTW, did you get the Woody Allen reference I made in a prior post on this thread? If anyone was going to get it, I thought, it would be Monty.
From the first link:
"Among 42,094 evaluable ≥12-year-olds without evidence of prior SARS-CoV-2 infection, 77 COVID-19 cases with onset ≥7 days post-dose 2 were observed through the data cut-off (March 13, 2021) among vaccine recipients and 850 among placebo recipients, corresponding to 91.3% VE (95% CI [89.0-93.2]; Table 2). " This unambiguously demonstrates the effectiveness of the vaccine in preventing infection. Kevin previously showed the graph.
"During the blinded, controlled period, 15 BNT162b2 and 14 placebo recipients died; during the open-label period, 3 BNT162b2 and 2 original placebo recipients who received BNT162b2 after unblinding died. None of these deaths were considered related to BNT162b2 by investigators. Causes of death were balanced between BNT162b2 and placebo groups (Table S4)."
The covid death rate among those infected using reported US totals is 1.6% (an uncertain number) which leads to an expected death rate in the placebo group of 14. It seems odd that no covid deaths were reported in either group, but that rate is for the life of the disease, while the blinded test was only for a few months during which the infection rate in the US was increasing steeply, Basically the sample is too small and the conditions too variable to assess death prevention. This was not a fully controlled lab test.
Sorry, they said no deaths related to the vaccine, not no covid deaths. But the numbers are still too small to draw any conclusions about death prevention.
The absolute reduction of symptomatic Covid (not counting the 6 weeks after the first injection where the injected had 40% higher infectious rates) was less than 4 out of 100 people. 100 people received the risks and harms of the injection while less than 4 received the benefit of not having symptomatic Covid.
No health data was tested for but of the harms reported 16% received an adverse event and systemic negative effects included 25% headaches, 35% fatigue, 25% muscle pain, and 15% joint pain.
If we don't have enough data to know if the the increased deaths in the research is statistically significant then there is not enough data to say the experimental drug is safe.
@ CLD
Are deaths no longer a bad thing?
Claiming an experimental drug is safe because the drug seller says the deaths in their own data don't count because their experimental drug is safe is cherry picking and circular reasoning.
@Qauker
Which table shows 33 vrs 32 deaths? Because table s4 page 12 shows the Vaccine group with higher all cause total deaths.
And if the one greater death in the vaccine group in this study was actually hit by a bus?
And when none of those deaths in the vaccine group were deemed attributable to the vaccine?
You have to be able to show cause of those deaths to make the claim, or disqualify the attributions, or just show why one is statistically meaningful.
Without that there's nothing.
"And if the one greater death in the vaccine group in this study was actually hit by a bus?"
Are you no longer mentioning the actual reported deaths because when you said we should ignore the cancer deaths it was pointed out that the placebo group had more cancer deaths?
Would the equivalent of being hit by a bus be the drug overdose that occurred in the placebo group? What about the dementia death that occurred in the placebo group?
When you don't address the actual causes of death it is a tell.
"And when none of those deaths in the vaccine group were deemed attributable to the vaccine?"
Use a search engine and look up the circular reasoning fallacy so you can stop using it.
"Without that there's nothing."
If there is nothing there's is no logical reason to get an experimental drug let alone force others to get it. Remember the goal post is "is the increased mortality in the corporations own data enough to say the drug on net kills people."
You're having a paranoid experience and looking for something to justify it. This is not it.
The doctor's involved determined those deaths were not caused by the vaccine. That's not circular reasoning.
This study had over 45,000 people in it. That some of that amount of people will die over any course of time is not hard to imagine.
It was conducted by what looks like a couple hundred professional researchers. You are claiming to have caught something strikingly significant which they missed, or that they are involved in willful deception.
Both of those things are implausible.
If you look at table S3, Adverse Events, it shows there were three deaths among the vaccine group over the entire period of the study and five among the placebo group.
That was one more death.
If you're going to use that you have to be able to say why the investigators were wrong in not attributing this one more death, or all of them, to the vaccine, not just that it happened.
"The Pfizer Covid vaccine study had more death in the vaccine group than the placebo group."
Just in raw numbers, that table shows more causes of death for the placebo group (33 vs 32), but it notes that there can be more than one cause for a single death. In both treatments, the n is 20,000+ and exactly 3 of the deaths list Covid as a cause (1 vaccinated, 2 placebo).
Your reading skills are weak.
That second paper says >25% of some 15k receiving the Moderna vax in a study had "severe adverse events" of grade 3 or worse (defined as "significant symptoms requiring hospitalization or invasive intervention; transfusion; elective interventional radiological procedure; therapeutic endoscopy or operation").
By that measure, now that ~150 million doses have been administered in the US, we should have observed 10s of millions of "severe adverse events" .
I don't think that happened. Can you explain?
The GOP is hanging albatrosses around its neck left and right -- the Texas abortion law is a case in point. In this case, Biden is handing them the albatross. We'll see which Republicans decide to don it.
Going to the mat already?
GOP govs rip Biden over new vax mandate, threaten legal action
South Dakota Gov. Kristi Noem and Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp were among the GOP governors to announce they will take action against the Biden administration’s “unlawful mandate.”
I look forward to seeing which of my co-workers is an anti-vax nut case.
In Michigan…
The doctors say unvaccinated patients make up the vast majority of people hospitalized with COVID-19.
“We’ve had close to 2,700 admissions to our hospitals for COVID illnesses (since Feb. 1) and of those 93% have either been unvaccinated or not fully vaccinated,” Lampen said.
The doctors say that while it is possibly to be fully vaccinated and hospitalized, the few cases they see typically affect the most vulnerable patients.
“We are seeing some breakthrough infections with individuals that are being admitted but on average, those tend to be older individuals with high comorbidities, or medical complications,” Lampen said.
Are we still pretending the vaccines don’t work?
Anti-vax, nope. Covid politics, yes. Stop making lazy posts.
Kemp & Noem want another Medicaid Expansion Cannot Be Mandatory if Unfunded ruling from the Supremes, in hopes Biden will suffer the same shellacking as Obama.
All just a little bit of history repeating for these GQP propellorheads.
From the standpoint of the pandemic, which will be the more powerful epidemiological force?
How this plays out politically depends on who is more pissed and willing to vote their anger: people who are sick and tired of not being able to get back to normal because of all the oppositionally defiant toddlers out there refusing to get vaccinated, or people who think being told by their employer to get the shot is a million times worse than Auschwitz. Republicans usually have a distinct advantage in turning out and benefitting from the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more" vote, but we'll see. Maybe this time Biden has tapped a vein of outrage that will benefit Dems for a change.
Folks from my birth place speak out in the paper, front page.
https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgarians-grapple-with-postponed-surgeries-amid-covid-19-fourth-wave
As much as I think the private employer mandate is Unconstitutional and will be struck down in the courts, that's not the point. The point is the Biden Administration wants to be seen as "doing something" rather than always reacting to events or in this case the lack of vaccines among some in the citizentry. I'm sure they've been told doing so taps into the frustrations the vaccinated has with the unvaccinated and sure enough, the polls are baring this out.
Uh, it's an OSHA reg, and by all accounts it's on very solid legal footing.
It's also interesting to see how many anti-vaxxers and fellow travelers immediately assume Biden is doing this because of the "optics" and parse his motives politically, when this happens to be a matter of, y'know, life and death for millions of Americans.
But then, since anti-vaxxers and fellow travelers don't themselves manifest the slightest bit of concern for other people, I guess it figures that they would assume nobody else does either.
Yeah, but this looks weak. I would have crowed at the falling positivity rate. The now declining case rate and cresting hospitalization. About 2/3's of adults are fully vaccinated. The last wave increased the speed of that. Why bother???? It was a gaff.
It’s a testing mandate, just like drug testing.
You can avoid the required testing by showing proof of vaccination.
In the red corner, we have the 10-15% of the population who considers the mandate little more than a fascist attempt by lefties to establish power and dominance over non-liberals.
Their purpose is to cause disruption any way they can anywhere they can get away with.
It's a riot, but just the noise of a riot, mostly. Sometimes they can't take it anymore and physically lash out, but it's the noise they like.
It's the noise they like because it drowns out the confused and anxiety morass between their ears. It's why they listen to talk radio, it replaces the anxiety and confusion with blind certainty.
And that's why they're now invading school board meetings. It's a place where they can have a riot in public, but with just the noise.
But it's still a riot and motivating and controlling the character and impetus of a riot is exactly what fascism does.
Conservative 'thought' is nothing but disruption.
With all these microchips being injected into people surely wingnuts could find one?
What is that psychiatric condition where people think everyone they know has been replaced by some kind of doppelganger or pod person?
Is this microchip thing a form of that?
As part of taking over your brain, the microchips prevent you from seeing them.
That's why the Biden administration not allowing them to be used to help blind people see again is such a SCANDAL!!11!
But surely wingnut-vision is sharp as a tack.
As a doctor, this is great news—we are tired and overwhelmed.
But as an American, I'm a little concerned. This is the same country that elected Trump. What's to stop him from requiring me to inject bleach in 2024?
You can't order somebody to commit suicide.
What's to stop him?
Well, absence of clinical trials and proven efficacy, "Doctor."
Conservatives loveloveLOVE to turn the tables on stuff like this. So what will be their imagined conservative "mandate" that's just waiting for the next Republican president to arrive?
Will all large companies and government agencies be ordered to demand that we open-carry an AR? That we all dress according to our gender as assigned at birth? That we all participate in building a border wall?
Can't wait to find out.
They already impose drug testing. So for them to shriek hysterically about covid testing is . . .
You cannot analyze the political ramifications of something just by looking at opinion polls of what % age of the public aprooves ( even if you assume they get that right which is questionable with polls today ).
The political impact depends on who might actually change their vote over this or maybe vote when they otherwise would not.
So any highly partisan republican who objects to this action- likely zero effect
.they were going to vote Republican anyway. And same for highly partisan democrats who approve , their opinion really does not matter as they are locked in anyway.
But for whom might this be the marginal thing that changes their vote? That is what matters.
And I expect there this is a political loser.
Most who are vaccinated and who are those who could be persuaded to vote either for Republicans or democrats are either just softly approving of this and have some sympathy for the unvaccinated ( i.e. they have some doubts as to this is right or not). Or they do approove but it is not a major issue for them.
But there is a group of vaccine resistors, many minorities, who are traditionally democrats but have become somewhat willing to consider Republicans over covid policy among other things . And forcing them to become vaccinated against their will or lose their job will infuriate them. And that is the type of thing that will last and can really change political orientations, even permanently.
And many vaccine resistors are not partisans for either side. They are the generally disengaged who do not trust either party or any government of either party or even any institution. This is why they are vaccine sceptical. They are sceptical of everything the establishment says . And those people usually do not vote or vote protest parties . You need an issue that affects them personally to get them to vote for a major party.