It's fine to be anti-Russia right now. Hell, it's hard not to be. It's OK to express this by writing about it; boycotting Russian products; supporting sanctions against Russia; hoping Vladimir Putin gets frogmarched to The Hague; and so forth.
But in the spirit of avoiding another Freedom Fries folly, there are some things that range from dumb to definitely not OK. For example:
- Hating on people of Russian extraction.
- Grousing about Russian dressing, Russian rye bread, vacationing on the Russian River, etc.
- Not listening to music by Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninoff. Ditto for books by Tolstoy or Dostoevsky.
- Changing your posting rules to allow violent posts against Russians (looking at you, Facebook).
- Jingoistic demands for military action that could lead to nuclear war.
- Etc.
You get the idea, I hope.
The facebook stuff is fine. Considering how useful to fucking up the west facebook was for Russia a little payback is in order. I know you say over and over that social media right wing nuttery is no big deal but you are wrong.
Yeah, I think a lot of the feeling at the moment is "Trump held us hostage for 4 years and now we're free to say what we really think". Tough to stop that kind of momentum.
It was stupid.
Completely ineffective as a tit-for-tat response, so you didn't get any "payback". And if you had, that wouldn't have helped anything except make allow you to feel a little satisfaction.
Instead, it gave Putin an excuse do what he wanted to do anyway, further ratchet down local access to "western propaganda".
It also serves as example #562 that Zuckerberg is nowhere nearly as smart as he thinks - this will bite him in the ass, too.
Rarely have I seen a post so wrong, lol.
Excellent post. At some point we will probably need to compromise with Putin to avoid even worse bloodshed and/or nuclear escalation. Zelensky has been willing to compromise, and there are mixed messages from Russia. I hope the public isn't so crazed with hatred that we can't do that.
I dunno. The anti Russian stuff may be a bit out of hand. On the other hand Putin is what he has always been and way too many Russians Have supported his actions for way too long. They are reaping what they have sowed and I’m sorry for the suffering of those who didn’t support him. No Russian deserves to be surprised by Putin. It’s like the Republicans and Trump.
They are reaping what they have sowed
I'm distinctly unsure how a friend's niece--"Russian" in the "was adopted from Russia as a pre-teen 20 years ago" sense--getting roughed up in a parking lot last week is in any conceivable way "reaping what [she] has sowed."
"way too many Russians Have supported his actions for way too long"
My brother's wife left Russia for the US to avoid oppression. Someone slapped her in public yesterday by someone who thinks like this for the crime of being Russian.
"They are reaping what they have sowed and I’m sorry for the suffering of those who didn’t support him."
Fuck you. You are acting just like the Republicans you're complaining about.
Now they know how the Asian-Americans who were getting roughed up on public streets for spreading the Rona felt.
Mind you, much of that Anglo, Black, & Latin on Asian violence spurred by Russian troll farms.
They make their living sowing discord, they shouldn't expect it won't come back on them.
No fucking way. They are barbarians and must be exterminated.
We haven’t had a nuclear exchange of ICBM and no doubt that’s the “nuclear war” everyone rightly fears, but the destruction in Ukraine is darn near to it. Starvation, mass arrests… you name it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/kherson-ukraine-offers-glimpse-into-russian-occupation-135089733593
I can post video of dead bodies and elderly wandering around the devastated areas alone and bewildered. Last weekend there were pics of a family killed in a mortar attack. Mother, Teenage boy and a little girl. This is what war looks like. It’s what it looks like when Americans do it too. This is why people like me hate war so much. And this is why I am always frustrated by those who enable it… who make excuses for it. It’s why I have such contempt for people in the military (in all countries) and those who make these weapons of mass murder and destruction. I guess they are some necessary evil. They always proclaim their wars will be quick and easy… greeted as liberators… that they minimize collateral damage… that we have a responsibility to protect. And all they really do is kill and destroy.
I have no idea why the Russians are doing this. There is no excuse. Neither will I argue some policy or action by the US or Europe provoked Russia. It’s irrelevant.
Decent people cannot be expected to accept this level of violence in a civilized world. Of course… this isn’t a civilized world. Not in the least. Our small pockets of peace and prosperity are forever threatened by fanatics and demagogues.
Russians have already threatened nuclear war. They use that threat as a cover to commit atrocities. We let them because we are afraid to provoke them further.
Telling me to be not so mean to Russians in this context is not useful. Why not just say you are afraid and admit that you are willing to give the Russians what they want to prevent the exchange of ICBMs? That’s what we’re doing. We are acquiescing to the extermination of Ukrainian people, society, and cities because we are afraid to try and stop it.
This is what war looks like. Don’t look away.
Performance troll, a few weeks ago he was all hard left extreme pacifism.
You left out "You play with my world...Like it's your little toy", Bob.
congrats on being the first person in history to come to the conclusion that war is hell ... oh wait ... i believe somebody beat you to the punch.
"being mean" to russians a) doesn't accomplish anything b) the average russian has little to nothing to do with war. save your "meanness" for vlad the impaler. as for people of russian descent, now, that's plain stupidity.
c) many russians don't like this war either, especially those who know what's going on. in fact many are on the streets protesting, with the very real prospect of being jailed for their actions/beliefs. meanwhile you're posting on a blog in the u.s. totally protected by the first amendment, totally worry free.
Man, I'm sure glad Justin isn't President. Even Trump would be better, because even though Trump wants to be King of the World, he still needs the world to exist for that to happen.
Justin, you are giving the name "Justin" a bad name.
Young Zaphod plays it safe!
Justin is a weird one. Most of the time he bemoans the inevitable collapse of the U.S. and encourages us all to give up trying, making me think he's maybe some sort of Glavset troll. But here he's calling for the "extermination" of Russians, which is absolutely a horrific thing to say about other humans. I guess he's just an awful person.
I believe there is only one reasonable way out, now: Putin deposed.
I believe Putin's actions and his military's actions have crossed a series of red lines (war crimes and crimes against humanity) that block a negotiated peace agreement without first his (metaphorical) head served up on a platter for The Hague.
It helps this cause if Americans and others around the world rhetorically separated Putin from Russians.
Perhaps... at the end of WWII when Hitler was dead, lots of Germans pretended not to know what they were doing. They were all captive to their own petty hatreds and biases... happy to believe whatever nonsense was fed to them. It's easier to hate or kill some enemy identified by your government than suffer the personal consequences of resistance. Of course, many of those soldiers are going to die anyway.
I'm not going to let so called "ordinary" Russians off the hook for this atrocity. What's the point in that? In any event, I don't know any Russians and will never have the opportunity to express my contempt directly so it doesn't matter.
> I'm not going to let so called "ordinary" Russians off the hook for this
> atrocity. What's the point in that?
It may reduce the chances of further wars.
I qualify it with"may", becuase maybe it wouldn't work. But it needs
to be at least considered.
Many of the Russians that you might actually meet actually left Russia because they hate Putin. And some of them are getting harassed because of people with your attitude. So, good job?
++++
Much like people here who are venomous in their reaction to the Afghan refugees, as if there aren't many among them who risked their lives assisting US forced in another horrible war. Always grateful for reports of others welcoming them & listing where & how I can send or take help.
Not all though. There are absolutely Putin loving Russians who live in the west. No need to mash their faces in public however.
So, how is your attitude with the thousands of Russians arrested for protesting Putin's actions, treat them the same?
It is like criticizing Israel for the government allowing apartheid. It has little to do with the Jewish religion but criticizers are labeled anti-semitic anyway.
Essentially another “kill them all and God will sort it out” argument from the person who claims to hate war.
Nice little euphemism you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it ...
So....rename Moscow Mules to Maiden Mules?
Hating on Russian war hawks and Putin and his toadies....that's ok. Promoting extra-judicial violence--always a bad idea.
Puting certainly is getting his money out of the right wingers and their organizations. People will boycott vodka made in the US with a Russian name by a European company--will they also boycott Putin's mouthpieces in the US?
"Putin getting his money's worth" not puting
arrrghhh!!!
Oh yes, apparently people are taking out their anger on poutine.
I see what you did there. I like my fries with Ketchup. Very American, I guess.
Perhaps we could send the Russian refugees T-shirts that say "Sorry about Our President" in a variety of languages. We probably have a lot left over from our last guy.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1365/1347/products/unnamed_1_590x.png?v=1527187716
it's good to reuse and recycle!
I’m OK with the All-Night Vespers, but I will avoid listening to the Rachmaninov piano concertos (concerti?) as I always have. Prokofiev and Shostakovich, come right in!
Oh, come now, just because you have to have Marfan's Syndrome to play Rachmaninov is no reason to dump on him.
Just a personal taste; my least favorite classical music genre is the piano repertoire bequeathed us by Romanticism. But chacun à son goût.
Rachmaninov’s Preludes played by Ukraine-born Sviatoslav Richter are marvelous music.
Not even "Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini"? Your loss.
Is Prokofiev still the gateway drug? Back in the day (in the same school we all went to, in different places), it was Peter Ustinov (before he was a Sir) doing 'the color of the orchestra' bit.
I will never stop grousing about russian dressing.
Kevin is right, although some of these things are not like the others. The same way as "Liberty cabbage" is silly, but not the same kind of wrong as interning Americans of Japanese descent. As the foregoing illustrates, these sorts of actions have been common for a long time; they are not a project of current "cancel culture."
People should take out their anger where it is deserved. For instance, I hate Madison Cawthorn and anyone who votes for him.
Here is a wish: Quote examples next time you post like this. I'd like to know who the idiot is who objects to the Russian River (for those who don't know: it is a minor river somewhat North of San Francisco, mostly known for regular flooding in winter) or to War and Peace.
I don't know about Tolstoy, but there was an Italian university that canceled its course on Dostoyevsky, although they later recanted. https://english.almayadeen.net/news/Art-Culture/italian-university-cancels-dostoevsky-course-over-ukraine-cr
That's not to say that items this stupid are really common--yet.
Ahem.....I think you mean the Freedom River, don't you?
Here you go:
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/news/no-more-russian-river-symbolic-acts-of-ukrainian-solidarity-abound-in-so/
So 2 random guys hung a sign over the official sign naming the river and started a change.org petition to have the river renamed. In a country of 330m plus. And then some actual elected people retweeted the photo/link.
Well obviously that warrants lots more of us discussing the pros and cons of renaming rivers or worrying about cancel culture going too far against regular Russians.
Ugh. Kevin, take your own advice. Unless something is said or done independently (not just liked or retweeted) by a minimum of 10,000 people or so, it doesn’t warrant any attention whatsoever. You can always find 1 or 10 or 100 or even 1,000 people in America doing anything you disapprove of.
"Kevin, take your own advice. Unless something is said or done independently (not just liked or retweeted) by a minimum of 10,000 people or so, it doesn’t warrant any attention whatsoever. "
Exactly! Kevin's gone far down the road of cherry picking crap to prove woke libruls are evil and cancel culture has run amok. It's weird to watch, as I don't think he was always like this. I've been reading him for well over a decade and this seems new.
Part of Sonoma County's coast was settled by Russians in the early 1800's. Fort Ross was their settlement. It's a state park now. Lots of people of Russian decent in the area.
Sonoma County is a beautiful place to live.
Dostoyevsky's psychological fiction is absolutely brilliant, but his self-important religiosity tied up with his view of Russia as having been destined to carry out an important mission in Europe is the last thing I want to read right now. Give me someone with his feet on the ground, Chekov or Turgenev.
On the contrary, we won't understand Putin with our feet on the ground. We might, a bit, if we read Dostoyevski's rants against the moral turpitude of the West (and of the Catholic Church in particular). But as Manifest Destiny shows, Russians aren't the only ones to feel their nation has a calling, and rights, others don't.
This is Putin’s war against the Ukrainian People. This is Putin’s war against peace, stability and democracy… it’s not the Russian people’s war . They are as much victims as the Ukrainians
A small reminder from a Swede
Agree with three thumbs up. Those people who say if they had been Weimar Republlic Germans back then they would've snap-kicked that Hitler fellah in the face are full of it.
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
Hahaha! Didn't expect to laugh on this thread either.
I don’t see it quite this way. I was born in the USA shortly after WWII ended, but my ancestry is entirely German. Through my life, including travel and work in Germany, I have become increasingly aware of the extent to which I am still a product of that culture, blended with American elements. Despite the degrees of removal of time and place, I nevertheless feel a responsibility to examine those influences, to identify and reject the strands that led people to accept the rise of fascism, with so few exceptions. If my heritage were Russian, I would wonder why the old country failed to stay on a democratic path, where other former Soviet-bloc nations have succeeded - what in the culture or worldview led to the ascendancy of an admirer of Stalin? To avoid facing such issues is to ignore the courage of the thousands who have protested the war and suffered beatings and arrest, risking prison terms. So, no, I don’t give a pass to the Russians who shrug and go about their lives.
I think that's an interesting, and nuanced take. I'd add to it that ideally, we'd look at and think about everybody this way--being open to examining motivations and circumstances and history.
It's also probably true, though, that being broadminded and introspective is a luxury those of us in peaceful places can enjoy. I couldn't ask a Ukrainian who is dodging bullets or trying to find insulin for their kid after a Russian bombing destroyed the local hospital to think inwardly "there are a lot of things that happened to get us here, and maybe that Russian hit squad is just as much a victim of history as I am." The same applies, to a lesser degree, to Russians knowing that speaking out might result in disappearing to prison or "accidentally" falling out a window after an unexpected visit by the FSB.
I don’t believe in collective guilt.
The ordinary Smirnov&Ivanov living over there are just unlucky to have been born as Smirnov&Ivanov in a country that never has been granted the privilege of freedom and democracy.
Some Russians are guilty as he## but most aren’t.
One cannot blame all Americans for the killings KKK are guilty of and not all Americans are guilty of the crimes incited by Bush&Co in the Middle East even if they didn’t protest loudly
Most Russians are just trying to make ends meet suffering from a toxic political system they cannot change. Some are trying to change it but it comes with a price and not daring to risk it all by challenging the murderous mob in the Kremlin isn’t a crime.
I have no idea if I had been brave enough to risk 10 years in a Russian prison in order to protest the political system
Are you?
Ukrainians are having it so much worse then Smirnov&Ivanov but those ones are also victims in their own way
I don’t believe in collective guilt, either. When I talked of responsibility, I wasn’t referring to responsibility for the past, which lies exclusively with the perpetrators. But we all have the responsibility of striving to leave a better future for those who come after us.
And the American in me can’t accept that Russians are simply ‘unlucky’ not to have been ‘granted the privilege’ of democracy. Granted? By whom? God? No, government “of the people, by the people, for the people” comes about through continuous effort by the people. Who else? In the US, it has taken well over a century and multiple mass movements to extend the vote to propertyless people, African Americans and women, and the struggle goes on. It is immaterial whether I personally would have the courage to risk prison or death to oppose misrule, even tyranny - many thousands have done. Maybe in Russia it will take hundreds of thousands, or millions. But no one else can do it.
Your perspective is a little American…
Probably a lot American. It might have been in Kevin Drum’s blog that I saw the study that showed that Americans believe they have more control over their own destiny than do Europeans.
Plenty of Russians are gung-ho about the invasion. Yes, they have been shoveled a lot of propaganda, but anyone who doesn't realize that fact has hot to be pretty stupid. The rest are happy to lap it up, and our pity for them should be lessened by that.
I feel bad for the FoxNews-watching folks who shunned vaccines and died, but I feel much, much, much worse for the immune compromised people who have died because we couldn't control the epidemic.
Yes it's sad that lots of "ordinary Germans" got caught up in WWII, but the Holocaust is much, much, much worse.
So, no, I dont think the Russian civilian population is equivalently harmed by this war as the Ukranian civilian population. And, no, I dont think grinding down the Russian economy is equivalent to bombing Ukrainian hospitals. In fact, grinding down the Russian economy is the most humane option. A Venezuelan-style mass diet is not fun, but it is the least bad option. The faster this war ends in Ukraine's favor, the better off both ordinary Ukrainians and ordinary Russians will be. Russia winning will simply result in a protracted insurgency and more invasions, and that means a lot more hunger and death.
That is bullshit. A number of the Russian people are in fact as comitted as US MAGAs. I won't hazard a guess how many but it's not a negliga
That is bullshit. A number of the Russian people are in fact as comitted as US MAGAs and Qs.
if anti-russian violence and hate are going on, yes, that is bad and stupid. but is it? the most vicious case i'm aware of is a Tchaikovsky concert had the music changed. not what i would call a big deal or a slippery slope to the purge. in my life in a super liberal city with a bunch of super liberal, politically active friends, i have not heard a single word or seen a single action targeting russian people in a negative way.
Yeah, I heard that a performance of the 1812 Overture was cancelled. On one hand, it does celebrate a military victory of the Russians.
On the other hand, it celebrates the military victory of the Russians over an invading Napoleon.
On a third hand, I think that cancelling performances when the guest conductor is a Putin fan is entirely appropriate.
The Trump MAGAts think it's about the burning of Washington DC.
I think the world would be a mildly better place if Napoleon had beaten the UK so I'd rather not celebrate that.
I guess you aren't a hockey fan. The NHL has reported that Russian players have been receiving death threats and other forms of harassment, the league and teams are providing the players with extra security. That's bad.
Goin' tubing this weekend on the Freedom River!
I had assumed the people most likely to be violent are the same people who had been worshipping Putin, so we wouldn't have a problem. In any case, I hope things don't get out of hand.
Putin supporters should have their words thrown back in their faces:
“And if the Russian president’s style of government might have its critics, skiing legend Jean-Claude Killy isn’t joining in the chorus of disapproval. Far from it, telling CNN’s Alpine Edge show that the Kremlin leader is a “friend” with a “big heart” who is “poorly treated in the world today.””
https://www.cnn.com/2015/12/16/sport/vladimir-putin-jean-claude-killy-russia-sochi-skiing/index.html
In all of this spirit, the writer George Saunders posted on his substack story group a (very short) story by Isaac Babel, a Russian writer. Pretty appropriate to the moment, I thought.
If you've never heard of Isaac Babel -- I hadn't until I saw a couple years ago that Saunders had chosen one of his books as one of the "Top 10" books ever, in a book called "Top 10" which I think is fun to take a look at and I recommend -- look him up.
Gee, is it okay to call Putin a dirty commie bastard?
Only if you have no idea of what "commie" means. And I have no idea of Putin's parentage, so I can't comment on that.
He may not be a bastard by birth, but by temperament I think he's earned his stripes.
I happened to be finishing Vasily Grossman's novel Stalingrad when Russia began its military action in Ukraine. Events were taking place in locations that were in the historical novel. In response to the current carnage I watch Shostakovitch symphonies, but choose those conducted by Gergiev. I doubt I will watch mixed-martial arts (MMA) events after athlete Maxim Ryndovskiy was tortured and killed by Ukrainian neo-Nazis. Reports are his torture porn can be viewed on Telegram. Instead of a TikTok war, perhaps this military action is a cloud-based instant messaging service war.
Kevin, you sound like the kind of lily-livered traitor who willingly listened to Beethoven in 1917 and refused to call his Sauerkraut "Victory Cabbage!" We know your kind!
Oh, I forgot to mention that while you shouldn't stop listening to Russian composers and their music, you should listen to Ukrainian composer Boris Lyatoshinsky, specifically his 3rd Symphony, "Peace will Defeat War".
Here, the original 1951 composition, before he was forced into making changes -- https://youtu.be/psPO9Zva2HE
Read the notes to appreciate the full irony of the symphony and the parallels to current events.
On the positive side it does show us just how ugly Woke is.
For 30 years they've tried to pretend how wonderful they are, different from all tribalisms before them them.
THEY understand (and reject) stereotypes.
THEY understand (and reject) the fundamental attribution error.
THEY understand (and reject) the social pressure and demands for conformity.
All bullshit, absolute bullshit.
They chose Woke because it allowed them to be bullies, not because it made them better people. And as soon as they approved bully target changed, they were happy to pivot to that new target, just as long as they could continue the bullying.
What ARE you talking about?
I think the "woke" crowd are pretty far from anti-Russian bigotry.
Heck, Ilhan Omar and Cory Bush didn't even vote for this latest Russia sanctions bill - "might hurt the wrong people."
Like it or not, the "woke" crowd is not the "hang them high" crowd.
On the Twitter I interact with, they are essentially identical.
For example one delightful lady (masked photo, BLM slogan, with a list of preferred pronouns, so...) was justifying the choice of a German clinic to refuse to treat Russian patients because they were a private business and could do what they liked.
Good luck using that argument in the US (on legal, let alone PR, grounds) as you choose to turn away gay, black, or jewish patients...
Conversely, the people I see constantly saying "hold up, consider the consequences" or "look at this not-so-pleasant aspect of Ukrainian behavior" or "put this in historical context" are the people who have been excoriated as Intellectual Dark Web, ie the people who refuse to reflexively support whatever nonsense it is Woke is ranting about this week.
This is no surprise. IDW are defined not by being left or right by "Is it TRUE?", whereas Woke are defined by aggressively going along with the crowd.
I don't think people are becoming hostile to all that is Russian. At least I see none of that sentiment around me. What is happening is that we (rather, those of us in positions of responsibility) are PRETENDING to be. As a means of pressure. Which won't work. No-one in Moscow or Petersburg is going to wail: "Oh, no, now they aren't even reading Tolstoi anymore!" Instead they'll double down on an "everybody hates us" bitterness.
Culture war is always a bad idea. I'm all for financial sanctions, for sending weapons to Ukraine, for hitting Russian robber barons where it hurts. But I also tink that if we exclude the Russian people from our hearts, the war will last longer and be more cruel.
Russian airlines don't actually own their planes, they lease them, and now the owners are trying to re-possess them but fear all is lost forever,
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-08/owners-outfoxed-as-russia-absconds-with-10-billion-of-jets
Curious.