Donald Trump has recently mused about reviving mandatory military service; replacing the income tax with tariffs; and the relative merits of drowning vs. electrocution. This is nutty stuff but it doesn't seem to bother any of his supporters. Why?
My guess is that the answer is twofold: (a) they don't think he's serious, and (b) they've wondered about stuff like this too. So why shouldn't Trump?
Conventional wisdom says that presidents should be more careful about random musings than the average guy at a bar. But the average guy at a bar doesn't see it that way. Why shouldn't a president toss around some out-of-the-box ideas now and then? Eggheads aren't always as smart as they think they are, amirite?
You could just say "cult" and leave it at that.
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
+1
It even fits on a bumper sticker.
One could but that is engaging in Lefty cultish thinking yourselves, closed loop self-deception.
The MAGA reaction does not look enormously different from populist right backlashes in Europe - which should not be childishly dismissed as "cults"
It is not in fact terribly difficult to understand how the binary either R or D US system - an unavoidable dual-party artefact of your specific legal structure for elections in combination with misplaced populist reforms tha destroyed party ability to control - leads opposition to excuse and ignore
If one opposes - right or wrong is quite besides the point - the perceived Left cultural agenda, then this leads given the binary American system to have to turn blind eye to one's only opposition choice - unless the choice is mitigated.
Rather than engaging in class snobbery dismissal relative to MAGA (i.e. "cult", a childish reaction) it is far better to understand the systematic issues in order to mitigate political positioning to win.
Shorter lounsbury:
“I hate the LGBT/black/Latino people so much, I have to vote for fascism and tearing up the Constitution. Instead of just staying home and sitting out the election. Look what you made me do, liberals and centrists.”
+1
A system works if and because within-system groups work together in service of the system at the groups' short-term expense, and then the groups benefit from the system's strength.
A system stops working when groups work at cross purposes because a group thinks they are the system, and other groups are opportunities to be exploited, or threats to be neutralized, and otherwise irrelevant.
The ability to control is not destroyed by misplaced populist reforms. If you believe in that, then you believe in a conspiracy theory.
Humans work together, in lieu of working at cross purposes, if and because we perceive each other as fellow human beings, which demands that we accept a mutual "treat others the way we would want to be treated" constraint.
But it is a cult. How else do you explain his ability to call military people who died for their country “suckers and losers?” Please name me any other politician who could do that with impunity? Trump, pretty much daily says or does things that would be the death knell for any other politician. Is there any other politician whose followers compare them to Jesus? Who make pictures of them with Rambo bodies fighting dinosaurs? If the behavior of Trump’s followers isn’t cult like behavior, what is it?
The MAGA reaction does not look enormously different from populist right backlashes in Europe - which should not be childishly dismissed as "cults"
The problem is that, though I vehemently disagree with them, the right-wing populists in European countries are led by serious people. The US Republican Party is led by a clownish buffoon.
I'm trying to understand what is particularly "Lefty" about observing that Trump's MAGA followers are a cult? I've seen similar analysis from people (inc. experts) who are not at all left but would be considered mainstream or even from the right. Wasn't Trump among the first to call out the cultish loyalty of his base in January 2016, when he claimed they'd stick with him even if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue?
I don't know any corollary to Trump in European politics. There's been a swing toward the right in some places, but nobody as chaotic and nonsensical as Trump who commands as large and loyal a following.
If you're saying instead that people should understand the grievances of people in the MAGA base, then I'd say the media has been on the job since the rise of Trump as a political figure. How many times have we read about why Trump lovers love Trump? The NYT practically opened a bureau in PA's rural bar country. Remember all the squealing about "economic anxiety," while no one dared call any Trump followers "racists." Hillary got roundly criticized for the word "deplorables" -- not a wise thing strategically -- but can anyone claim she was wrong?
If Joe Biden and not Jeffrey McMahon were calling MAGAs a cult, you might have a point. It's never good for a candidate to insult any segment of voters. But random comments in a blog thread are not exactly the stuff that swings elections.
Speaking of insulting voters, have you heard what Trump is saying about them? The latest this week was his comments about the "horrible city" of Milwaukee, the largest and highly diverse city in the swing state of Wisconsin.
Why are Democrats, even in blog comments by largely anonymous users, expected to speak in only respectful tones about MAGA cult members while the opposition's candidate can insult city folk (that is, urbanites inc. people of color) with impunity?
Rather than engaging in class snobbery dismissal relative to MAGA (i.e. "cult", a childish reaction) it is far better to understand the systematic issues in order to mitigate political positioning to win.
I think that's a smokescreen. The "systematic issues" you wish were the key to winning votes often boils down to MAGA cultural grievance and bigotry. Their votes are not going to be won by new policy proposals or better messaging.
That's because they're a cult.
Thumbs up.
In the blog way, not the Donald way.
Lounsbury:
-"You dont understand because you are an outsider"
-"You cant call us a cult because we have some agreements with other extremist groups!"
-"You have forced us into this cult! +word salad"
-" You are a big dummy, unlike me who is soooo very smart!"
--------
This sounds an awful lot like a response from a cult member. Almost a perfect response, hitting all the classic cult talking points.
Yup.
There’s out the box, and there’s out of your mind thinking. Trump is the latter. And to my mind he’s less clear thinking every day. More excuses for why Trump is somehow a normal person. He’s not.
+1
Well yes - but he is structurally the only choice the opposition has.
One can hope this generates sit-out reaction if it is properly promoted
This is improper use of the passive voice. The reason why Trump is the only choice the opposition has is because they chose him over the alternatives.
The Friend speaks my mind. (raised Quaker and still Quaker inwardly, though also atheist)
Was "God" ever a big part of The Friends? GodLIness certainly was, but until recently they have never spent much time whapping The Good Book.
He also misidentified his candy-store WH doc today -- confused him with a Senator.
I think part of it is, he's evidently dumb AND he doesn't care. They like that! "Hey, he's dumb but he's still rich" (ok not really but that image is burned into their minds) "and he was President! That makes ME feel good!"
And he did it ironically when he challenged Biden to take a cognitive test -- the MoCa -- which measures one's memory and nothing else.
Oops.
😄😄
I'd say who cares about mistaking one name for another... except they seem to care whenever it's a Democrat speaking.
Back in 2000, the question was "Which candidate would you rather have a beer with?"
Now it's "Which candidate amkes your idiot cousin look smart by comparison."
It's hard to think of anyone I would LESS want to have a beer with than Donald Trump. And that's been true since long before he ran for president.
Particularly since the Convicted Felon doesn't drink, and would probably bore the socks off you by detailing how his older bro, Fred Junior, drank himself out of his inheritance, and then to death.
That’s if he didn’t bore you with how his brain gained knowledge from Ivy League schools through genetic osmosis from his uncle. I can’t even stand people who brag about their own achievements, I have no idea how anybody stands passing off their relatives’ achievements as their own.
Trump [claims he] doesn't drink. But forgetting that, he'll (1) bloviate incessantly and (2) leave you with the tab.
It's more that Trump would never want to have a beer with *you*. Is there any footage of him ever (I mean *ever*) interacting with some average MAGA rally supporter from a distance of less than 50 yards? Has he even shaken the hand of someone who's not a major politician and/or business leader (or one of his D-list celebrity supporters)? He despises his own supporters more than anyone.
Biden, meanwhile, would spend 24/7 glad-handing union machinists in Des Moines or consoling victims of a flood in Florida if he could.
Only reason I would do that is to urge gobs of fatty food on him and then try to provoke him into some kind of seizure.
It is a testament to the soullessness of SO many business and political leaders that they'll put up with him for long periods of time, even on more than one occasion! It's truly reaching Pyongyang levels.
All that matters to them ( SO many business and political leaders) are tax cuts.
The racism, resentments, sexism and homophobia are icing on the cake.
Sure, we all have peculiar thoughts every one in a while, but sorry, Trump is a dithering moron.
👍👍👍
I think it was more the relative merits of electrocution vs being devoured by a shark. Also, why would his fans question his intelligence? He has told them many times that his association with MIT makes him a genius.
On the other hand, that crowd behind him while he was talking about this was the quietest I've ever heard at a Trump rally. You could almost see the question marks over their heads.
He is the true voice of the baboon colony.
I have to say this was quite clever.
+10**10
Democrats will almost always reject the idea that they're not just running against Donald Trump but against the people who vote for him, and invariably end up blindsided by them.
Democrats are actually running against the baboon colony, not just their opponents.
Obviously Donny can't tell when he's just having a brain fart.
If it came from his brain, it must be smart.
Drowning vs electrocution. Perhaps he can try these out and get back to us.
Donald J. Trump - he doesnt just THINK outside the box, he LIVES there. If you get my drift.
Mocking Trump in respect to his labouring class non-egghead supporters is a poor strategy - reminiscent of H.Clintons foolish faux pas on "deplorabes"
Now exploiting items like "reviving mandatory military service" - this is something rather than mocking one should highlight as I rather suspect that for the age brackets that would be subject to this, mandatory military service goes over like the proverbial lead- balloon.
Other things like his spacing out and escalating incoherence have a decent angle on "not very sane" - better foundation than Uni educated elitist snobbery as a rhetorical device given your weaknesses in polling in the central swing states with weak Uni educated demographics for voters.
Lying about Secretary Clinton's statement only makes you into a liar.
Given the uselessness of the young people today I'm not sure mandatory service is such a bad idea.
Rags to rags in three generations?
He’s going to need “mandatory military service” based on the fact that his plan to deport 15 million people is going to take a large force of people to round up undesirables and build and guard the camps to detain them.
For the rest of us that Trump Army might be a bit scary, but then, that’s the point.
Wow that’s judgmental. Personally, my office’s most useless people have been Boomers since the internet became a huge part of everything we do. But sure, let’s assume the youth are all useless. They still aren’t going to want to die in combat, anymore than the generation sucked into Vietnam (the Boomers too I believe!) wanted to… and you should expect either widespread voting against a candidate threatening to bring back the draft or widespread shirking of the responsibility when it’s their turn to go be meatbags in some war halfway across the globe.
I really don’t think he wants a military to fight overseas. He wants them to be his thugs fighting in this country. And the people he wants to suppress are you and me.
Exactly - more like his private police force or army.
Probably the main reason they don't mind the nutty stuff is that they never hear about it. Their media bubble doesn't emphasize this stuff vs. panic about caravans and whatnot.
Oh, I think they hear it loud and clear. They hear that it's time to take a boot to the ass of people who are lousing up the country by being poor, gender fluid, illegal, elite, over educated, and don't salute every flag they see. They love the idea of an authoritarian administration kicking some butt to make people step up.
Good luck with that. Trump voters tend to be some of the laziest motherfuckers I’ve ever met. They are the trashy ones fucking up everything, and if we have to rely on them - rather than foreigners, legal or not, who actually do the shiity jobs modernity depends on - I expect living conditions to go downhill real fast for the bottom 90%.
This is my experience also.
If you're not really an expert in anything, it's a bit of a strain on your sense of self-worth to defer to any expert on any matter.
"Eggheads aren't always as smart as they think they are, amirite?"
IMHO, no.
Neuroscientists and rocket scientists are born eggheads, although some eggheads are flipping burgers at MacDonalds. Eggheads aren't always as WISE as they think they are, probably because they equate wisdom with being an egghead.
For the record, and regardless of whether an individual is an egghead, if the individual's circle of influence extends beyond their circle of concern, then they are insufficiently, and otherwise sufficiently wise. For example, Speaker Mike is an egghead that looks stupid to you if you're outside his circle of concern.
A lot of them just bang on their phones when he goes on a wander until he comes back to the fashy stuff.
Some things he says to appeal to his base. Other things he's fishing for what'll get his base excited or grow it.
Almost none of it matters, on account that everything he does is transactional.
And while wasting time covering such stuff rather than focus on his verbal threats to democracy, people are letting voters believe this is about two people with different ideas.
It's not a fight for ideas; it's a battle for liberal democracy.
+1
They don't care because it's not relevant to modern politics.
It's all transactional and about which party is in power. That's it.
Stop giving air to shit that doesn't matter - and it doesn't matter because you haven't pointed out that the actual content of what he says doesn't matter, you're just flummoxed and apparently in the dark as to why it doesn't seem to matter to his supporters. Highlighting the WHY it doesn't matter, and perhaps pointing out things we can do about it, is a worthwhile use of time.
Your two options are from an entirely different reality than the one we live in.
Mandatory military service is hardly thinking outside the box. It's been a measure beloved by conservatives the world over, probably since the Roman Republic. They fondly believe it teaches young people "discipline", by which they mean doing what they're told without any backchat.
And of course prior to the Civil War, tariffs and excise duties were the federal government's main sources of revenue. Everything old is new again!
Actually, in the US mandatory military service (i.e. the draft) was opposed by liberals and supported by conservatives during the Vietnam era. But nowadays (since the 1990s) it's the reverse. Conservatives (true ones) oppose the draft for largely libertarian reasons, while liberals (both in politics and in the media) have come out in support of it, mainly because it supposedly distributes the burden of responsibility across racial and social lines.
Donald is as usual picturing things like they were in his Wonder Years and before, growing up in Forest Hills with a wealthy father. That was when America was Great.
Guess what: there's no way a draft today would be just for the guys. Definitely girls too. How would that go over with the MAGA crowd (not that they would figure it out if not told)?
Idiocies are fun. Biden is not. And if The System never changes anyway, why not have fun. This, I think, is the problem with the strength of institutions. They become like mom and dad to the adolescent kid, ever there, ever providing, ever stabilizing, so you can throw tantrums safely.
I see this even in Europe, where the far right at least pretends to be serious. Everyone thinks Marine Le Pen normalized her party by clever means, but actually she has a great sense of humor (and I say this as a non-admirer). Meloni of Italy has a jocular side too and Wilders of Holland an eccentic one. These things are appreciated because people don't think the boat CAN be rocked. Except on immigration, nothing will change is what people think. It's a safe feeling and a fatalistic one at the same time. Maybe the end state of all stable systems is the instability that comes when people cease to think it depends on them.
There's a lot to this, I think-- assuming that whatever's being mocked and lampooned is set in stone and won't ever change. "Transgressional" humor can be a lot like this, and transgression is a big part of trump's public shtick.
OTOH sometimes it's just about the tone of voice and the words don't matter. Le Pen's father used to do some of the same stream-of-consciousness type riffs that trump does, and with some of the same results-- scandal among the respectable, cult-like following. The audience wants the tune, while everybody else is listening for the lyrics. Both these guys have been fundamental threats to their countries because of that disjunction.
Ability to hold an audience isn't a common or simple talent, and I think way fewer of our politicians have it now than did 150 years ago. It doesn't depend on emotional or physical or psychic balance, or require any of them, may depend on being unbalanced one way or another. Plus these days we're not used to seeing it happen without electronic spectacle to amplify whatever talent is there. For a big chunk of people, trump has that talent (not for me; his voice makes me cringe), and they don't care about the lyrics. The tune is what he gives them.
What you say about the tune and the lyrics is, I think, a parallel development to simultaneous anger at and trust in institutions. But an older one, having to do with the erosion of the Word (not in the St John sense but a more general religious one). E.g. European settlers in America thought they were clever when they fooled Amerindians who, themselves, never lied. But even they considered language sacred in certain circumstances like under oath. That's been progressively hollowed out too. Now many (most?) people are shocked that no word whatsoever is sacred anymore, while others still think liars are being clever.
The irony is that the notion of sacred now seems to live mostly in people who aren't religious. Not in all, of course, and there are pleny of non-religious people who think it's smart to flood the zone with shit. But I find it awesome (and not in a good sense) how many people will "lie for Jesus".
Yes. Very skilled crowd work. Not many can work a crowd. I’m expecting AI (ai) will identify, refine and unleash all kinds of mesmerizing psyop crowd tricks in near future campaigns.
The right wing NY Post strikes again.
“He might act like a doddering incompetent, look like a wax effigy and walk like a robot, but the president has the uncanny ability to exceed all expectations when it counts, politically.”
It’s a war. Fight or surrender.
Trump is usually not nearly as hard to understand as late night comics would have you believe.
Start with “it was better in the old days”. This is his message most of the time.
For instance, the message of the celebrated “shark/batteries” thing was “those impractical environmentalists with their heavy batteries. They don’t understand our boats.” With a diversion into “I’m a genius because a relative was an MIT professor” (He has mentioned that professor many times before - Trump often betrays his need for elite approval.)
I suspect for his fans, the fact that they can understand hiim and we can’t is a feature, not a bug, further proof that he speaks common sense and we liberal intellectuals are off the pier.
Its a mistake to view Trumpism through the lens of conventional politics where people want policy which will provide benefits to them or the nation.
It is a cult of grievance and grievance only requires the promise of retribution for the hated outgroup.
He's not Norm!
With Donald it’s not so much “out of the box thinking”. It’s more like tossing all kinds of random shit at the wall in the hope something might stick.
It's like 'inside the sensory deprivation tank thinking'.
Excellent job, everyone.
I see it differently. They know he's nuts. But the idiocy is part of the appeal because it drives normal people crazy.