Donald Trump also flitted from subject to subject during Thursday's debate, but his primary sin was his ceaseless stream of lies. Here are a baker's dozen of them.
1. Tariffs:
Not going to drive [prices] higher. It’s just going to cause countries that have been ripping us off for years, like China and many others, in all fairness to China — it’s going to just force them to pay us a lot of money, reduce our deficit tremendously, and give us a lot of power for other things.
Flat out lie. Tariffs are paid by the importer, who then has to pass along the cost increase to its customers.
2. Social Security:
This man is going to single-handedly destroy Social Security. These millions and millions of people coming in, they’re trying to put them on Social Security. He will wipe out Social Security. He will wipe out Medicare.
Illegal immigrants aren't eligible for Social Security. In fact, they help Social Security because they pay taxes but never get any of the benefits.
3. Abortion:
If you look at this whole question that you’re asking, a complex, but not really complex — 51 years ago, you had Roe v. Wade, and everybody wanted to get it back to the states, everybody, without exception. Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives, everybody wanted it back. Religious leaders.
Flat out lie. It's simply untrue that "everybody" wanted to overturn Roe. v. Wade.
4. Abortion again:
If you look at the former governor of Virginia, he was willing to do this. He said, we’ll put the baby aside and we’ll determine what we do with the baby. Meaning, we’ll kill the baby.
Former Gov. Ralph Northram never said this, no matter how many times Trump claims it.
5. Illegal immigration:
He decided to open up our border, open up our country to people that are from prisons, people that are from mental institutions, insane asylum, terrorists. We have the largest number of terrorists coming into our country right now. All terrorists, all over the world — not just in South America, all over the world. They come from the Middle East, everywhere. All over the world, they’re pouring in.
There is no evidence that terrorists have crossed into the US via the southwestern border.
6. Foreign affairs:
As far as Russia and Ukraine, if we had a real president, a president that knew — that was respected by Putin, he would have never — he would have never invaded Ukraine.... Just like Israel would have never been invaded, in a million years, by Hamas. You know why? Because Iran was broke with me. I wouldn’t let anybody do business with them. They ran out of money. They were broke. They had no money for Hamas. They had no money for anything. No money for terror.
This is ridiculous. Trump did nothing to deter Putin and nothing to deter Iran.
7. January 6:
Nancy Pelosi, if you just watch the news from two days ago, on tape to her daughter, who’s a documentary filmmaker, as they say, what she’s saying, oh, no, it’s my responsibility, I was responsible for this. Because I offered her 10,000 soldiers or National Guard, and she turned them down. And the mayor of — in writing, by the way, the mayor. In writing turned it down, the mayor of D.C. They turned it down.
Flat out lie. Trump didn't offer 10,000 National Guard troops to anyone on January 6.
8. January 6 again:
The unselect committee, which is basically two horrible Republicans that are all gone now, out of office, and Democrats, all Democrats, they destroyed and deleted all of the information they found, because they found out we were right. We were right. And they deleted and destroyed all of the information.
Flat out lie. The January 6 committee didn't destroy anything.
9. Ukraine:
Joe could be a convicted felon with all of the things that he’s done. He’s done horrible things. All of the death caused at the border, telling the Ukrainian people that we’re going to want a billion dollars or you change the prosecutor, otherwise, you’re not getting a billion dollars.
If I ever said that, that’s quid pro quo. That — we’re not going to do anything, we’re not going to give you a billion dollars unless you change your prosecutor having to do with his son.
Flat out lie. The US wanted Ukraine's top prosecutor fired because he was corrupt. It had nothing to do with Hunter Biden, and in any case, Joe Biden was just the messenger for US policy.
10. Inflation:
He caused the inflation. He’s blaming inflation. And he’s right, it’s been very bad. He caused the inflation and it’s killing black families and Hispanic families and just about everybody. It’s killing people. They can’t buy groceries anymore. They can’t. You look at the cost of food where it’s doubled and tripled and quadrupled. They can’t live. They’re not living anymore. He caused this inflation.
Our recent surge in inflation was caused primarily by COVID shortages. Beyond that, it was most likely caused by rescue packages passed under Trump, which were much bigger than Biden's. And food prices haven't doubled or quadrupled; they've gone up about 20%.
11. Criminal justice:
What he has done to the black population is horrible, including the fact that for 10 years he called them superpredators. We can’t, in the 1990s, we can’t forget that. Super predators was his name. And he called it to them for 10, and they’ve taken great offense at it, and now they see it happening.
Flat out lie. Biden never uttered the word superpredator.
12. The environment:
During my four years, I had the best environmental numbers ever. And my top environmental people gave me that statistic just before I walked on the stage, actually.
Trump was a disaster for the environment. Carbon emissions stopped going down under Trump until 2020, when they dropped solely due to COVID.
13. Fentanyl:
Jake, we’re doing very well at addiction until the COVID came along. We had the two-and-a-half, almost three years of like nobody’s ever had before, any country in every way. And then we had to get tough. And it was — the drugs pouring across the border, we’re — it started to increase.
Fentanyl deaths increased from 70,000 to 107,000 over Trump's term. Cocaine overdose deaths also skyrocketed.
if fact checking mattered to swing voters it would have been a blow-out in 2016
This is sort of good news - bad news. This is a fair, albeit incomplete, list of Trump's big lies. It's also a list of balloon balls Trump served up. Biden should have been able to hit any or all of them out of the park.
He did, if you read the transcript. And then Biden called Trump a liar several times.
Yes, Biden called him a liar, but didn't address any of the specific lies to convince a low-info voter that they are lies. A couple times, he tried, but just produced a jumble of words that no one could comprehend.
Please stop trying to pretend Biden's horrific performance was less bad because trump is a liar. We all know that already. But we are not the ones who are going to decide this election in WI, MI, AZ, PA, NV, and NC.
Regarding Biden, this is interesting:
https://andrewtobias.com/the-antihistamine-theory-and-what-the-campaign-itself-is-saying/
Precisely! Trump was serving them for Biden to hit them out of the park (or put the puck into a wide open net, if you're a hockey fan like me). Biden failed at that. I don't know if Biden would be incompetent in his second term, but he needs to perform in the campaign to get there. He's failing against the weakest opponent imaginable.
Ask any of the republicans who ran against Trump in 2016 if pointing out his lies was at all helpful. In his very first debate he claimed vaccines caused autism and he was immediately called out on it and it was the people telling the truth who were punished. Since Carter, the american people have made it clear that they prefer politicians who lie with a straight face.
It may not be helpful in the Republican primaries, where they all compete to outcrazy each other. It is certainly helpful on a debate stage in front of the wide audience. Besides, it depends on how you point things out.
There's an old political adage that goes,
you can't beat somebody with nobody.
Compared to Donald Trump everybody else is a nobody, except Joe Biden.
What does this even mean, cld? Are you saying that any Democrat except for Biden is a nobody. Out of kindness, I will refrain from calling you anything worse than the "King of Biden Cultists".
Here are some interesting poll results from yesterday. They are very revealing since the answers are given by exactly the same group of respondents.
June 28
1,011 LV
Data for Progress
Booker 44% Trump 46% Trump +2
Klobuchar 43% Trump 46% Trump +3
Shapiro 43% Trump 46% Trump +3
Buttigieg 44% Trump 47% Trump +3
Pritzger 44% Trump 47% Trump +3
Newsom 44% Trump 47% Trump +3
Whitmer 44% Trump 46% Trump +2
Harris 45% Trump 48% Trump +3
BIDEN 45% Trump 48% Trump +3
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/
So you see, among the same group of people, Biden does no better than any other Democrat, and a bit worse than two of them. The nerve of all of these nobodys!
And when you consider that many of the nobodys have little name recognition, and none of them have campaigned, (unlike Biden who has spent millions), then Biden is severely underperforming relative to the other "nobody" Democrats.
On the contrary, Booker, Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Harris all campaigned in 2020. Biden outpolled them all in the Democratic primary/caucus campaigns.
Ken, baby, we are talking about 2024, not 2020. The 2024 Biden is but a shadow of the 2020 Biden. As witness the debate.
Set your calendar ahead 4 years.
I don’t recall Biden being considered a great debater in 2020, either.
Biden was a bad campaigner in 2020. He's always been a bad campaigner. That was why he self destructed in 1988 and 2008. The only person Biden could beat in a presidential campaign is Donald Trump.
A ‘bad campaigner’ who won seven consecutive elections to the US Senate, generally by 60/40 margins.
That's simply gibberish, none of those people have had four years, or even four minutes, of the national wingnut media trying to dirty them up.
It's a 'flash poll', using, it says, 'web panel respondents'.
Harris in particular is an almost disastrously awful candidate, and none of the rest are even close to being geared up for it.
Better the devil you know than the devil you don't is the way a lot of people think, and among them only Harris and Buttigieg have a national profile.
These polls of people who are not running are worse than useless. They are not running! They are not holding rallies, holding town halls, running ads, meeting crowds, and they are NOT DEBATING TRUMP.
Zaphod: I'm surprised you head the balls to post those poll numbers here. You've been babbling on incessantly about how Democrats are doomed if they don't nominate Whitmer-Shapiro.
In fact, as those numbers demonstrate, there's no apparent advantage in dropping Joe in favor of one of those "dream" candidates. And that, of course, is without taking into consideration the damage that would be done by passing over the first Black Woman vice president via a contested convention.
I'm open to the argument that Joe should go, but let's be real: if he does drop out, it's going to be Kamala Harris. Rightly so.
Not a chance it will be Harris. Since party tickets were invented, only two sitting vice presdeints have ever been elected presdeint, (Martin Van Buren and GHWBush.)
Oh, I get to post this link again! https://xkcd.com/1122/
Unfortunately the relevant information here is that the other candidates have not been hit with unrelenting negative ads, and still do not do significantly better than Biden. If these numbers suggest anything it is that it would be a mistake or Biden to step down. Of course if the numbers change in response to Biden's debate performance that would be a different matter. But your evidence is evidence for staying the course.
I think you have it backwards with not campaigning hurting them. The generic democrat always out polls specific democrats. No one is better on the planet earth at the politics of personal destruction than the republican party. It was perfected by Karl Rove. (Recall GWBush come back in 2000 against John McCAin by spreading lies that McCain's adopted Bengladeshi daughter was a black bastard, with emphasis on black, not bastard.
Yeah… nobody cares! He looked presidential. Heck, I’m hoping he wins just so this country gets flushed down the toilet. It’s hilarious. Bring it on, Trumpy. Let’s see what you got! I’m not afraid. Don’t you be afraid either. We will be fine.
Famous last words.
We won't be "fine". Trump will evict a bunch of Mexican farm and slaughterhouse workers because they're easy to find and catch, and food will REALLY double in price, forcing the Fed to cinch down really hard. He and the 'Pugs will extend his tax cuts for the billionaires and juice the tariffs against China and Europe and everything else will soar in price.
The Fed will try to "double-down" on interest rates, which will piss off Trump who will "fire" Jerome Powell, all of which will trigger a run on the dollar and EVERYthing imported will cost double what it does now.
No, we will NOT "be fine".
No one really believes trump will pull it off or do that kind of damage. They just don’t. And they think we’re being hysterical when we suggest there is real risk. It’s hilarious.
Yup, and when MAGAs say "WTF" T will just blame it on liberals and they will buy it hook, line and sinker.
I agree that fact checking Trump is not going to help defeat him. There needs to be a relentless focus on a comprehensive list of all the ways he will destroy the country. Are you up for that Kevin?
Trump of course campaigns that is is Biden and the democrats that are destroying the country. Which side will convince the most voters and which dem candidate can best make the case against Trump.
Not just hammer on how he'll destroy everything except making rich people richer, but in real time take him apart as a person. Delivery is everything - take him apart in language anyone can understand while at the same time looking and sounding like an adult in complete control while you leave this barroom blowhard in the dust. Dismissal, ridicule, and (sparingly, only when it really counts) contempt. What is Trump?
A loudmouth idiot
A pervert
A failure
A loser
Incompetent
Sick
Pathetic
Weak
Stupid
Ignorant
A liar
A failure
Bless his little heart, he tries so hard to [....] but just doesn't seem to have the tools
A mamma's boy
Can't fill his daddy's shoes
Small, inconsequential, nothing
Not worth paying attention to
A failure
etc etc etc
Trump's a fighter, like all modern Republicans that's all he has, so he won't roll over and die. But the most important thing is to show the strength and willingness to take this weak-assed loser on and wipe the floor with him. If I were a Democratic strategist I would hire some folks from the 'hood and build a library of snaps. Seriously, being white is NOT going to work on this guy. He needs to be taken down, piece by piece, until who he really is cannot be ignored even by Politico.
There’s only one adjective that will hurt TFG — Loser! Keep hammering on all his failures. Mexico didn’t pay for a wall. He couldn’t even get Congress to pay for it, he had to steal from American service members. He never got an infrastructure bill passed — Joe did! He never brought out a health plan — Joe lowered drug prices, insulin prices, and got millions more covered. Trump can talk big, but he gets nothing done. Oh yeah, he got big tax breaks for himself and his rich pals. Oh, and he played a lot of golf. At which he cheats. Because he’s a loser!
That's good. On point.
one of the possible benefits of biden dropping out is it could be harder tarring a new candidate with issues like immigration and inflation
(not so much if they select harris)
"it could be harder tarring a new candidate with issues like immigration and inflation"
I find your lack of imagination disappointing.
well, a lot of us never imagined biden would do badly enough that major newspapers would be calling for him to drop out
so you may have a point
I find your lack of reasoning disappointing.
At the very least, Republicans would have to start all over in tarring someone new that they have not already tarred to oblivion.
Agreed on that point. And if it were Harris, maybe she could make an effective case for how GOOD the administration's performance has been . . . you know, in reality!
If Biden drops out, it has to be Harris. Do you think he wouldn't endorse his own VP? How would Black voters take to having her pushed aside?
the wapo compressed primary/weekly debates would let us find out how those numbers play out; maybe she knocks it out of the park in those debates and then it's an easy call
or maybe someone else does well, loses some black votes but gains 5 points with swing state voters
no one knows which of those scenarios is more likely, but it's probably useful to find out if/when we need to find a replacement
The word "maybe" is doing an awful lot of work in those comments.
the only way of avoiding 'maybe' is to talk about the past
How are you separating "swing state voters" from "Black voters"? What are the swing states and their major metros where many Black voters live? Wisconsin (Milwaukee), Michigan (Detroit), Pennsylvania (Philly), Nevada (Las Vegas).
Inadequate Black turnout in those states was a big reason trump got into the WH in 2016.
Trump is a lie....Kitties know
I thought his answer to immigration would have been simple- "I gave the GOP (Senate) everything they asked for, so you'll have to ask Mike Johnson why immigration is still so bad."
foxnews concern trolling:
Lara Trump sends warning to Democrats that replacing Biden could have consequences
Oh yeah. Them there Republicans are dead set on having Biden on the ticket, and will penalize Democrats if he is not!
This is trying to bait Democrats into a move that can only come across as panic stricken hysteria.
But, now that I think of it, an appeasing move would be to replace Harris as VP with someone like Newsom or Whitmer.
That could work.
It would certainly work to keep female democrats and democrats of color at home in November. In doing so, it would also work to hand the Congress to the GOP.
Not if it's her idea because she wants to run for governor of California and it's a better move not to be the incumbent VP when you really make your run for the White House.
The snag with that is that there is no guarantee she'd win.
Can't guarantee that for anybody.
To understand a symptom, you have to understand the disease. Trump's lying is a symptom. The disease is Trump supporters' belief that Democrats want to serve an exclusive interest that excludes them. Trump serving an exclusive interest that excludes everyone except Trump is another symptom of the same disease.
Interesting take.
Let's ask,
if Trump withdrew who would the Republicans nominate in his place?
Can you imagine it?
jd vance and VP stewart rhodes
that eye patch is so maga and vance would pardon rhodes so he could take office
Throw in Kyle Rittenhouse and you've got the Grand ol' LARP Society.
At the inauguration they can have a 21 gun salute with paintball cannons.
Go for him Joe, before the SCUS rules on presidential immunity!
just kidding
Why would a sociopath withdrawal. Especially when he's facing a life sentence without the power of pardon? And an obvious candidate for them is Nikki Haley.
Her main appeal has been that she's not Trump, if Trump were gone who will feel the enthusiasm?
Time to take a big deep breath, exhale, and wait a few more days until the dust settles.
Who knows, t-Rump could have a fatal coronary. We hope….
But yes, it's Biden who needs to step aside.
(yes, /s)
Somebody who lies confidently is vastly superior to somebody who stumbles over accurate statements. This is what the media and a large number of voters apparently believe. We are so fucked, even if Biden wins. Eventually it’s only a matter of time before we elect another narcissistic sociopathic liar.
Regarding tariffs: The cost of tariffs is split between the importing and exporting country. It is no more truthful to say they are paid entirely by the US as to say they are paid entirely by China. Elasticity of demand & supply are what determines the split. - Econ Prof.
You’re only correct for the items that don’t make it to America. 100% of the tariff on those items is borne by the manufacturer, who then opts to ship a lot fewer items to America since he/she knows they won’t sell the quantity they wanted to at a price that includes the tariff.
For every imported item that actually makes it to an American shelf, 100% of the tariff is then baked into the price and will be paid by American consumers. So the imported stuff actually successfully sold in America has 100% of the tariff paid by Americans.
And ultimately the biggest loser is still Americans under either scenario. Either Americans will pay higher prices to get the imported item or they won’t be offered the chance to buy the item at all. Both reflect losses for American consumers: one in terms of price paid and the other in terms of less choice in stores.
When the foreigner chooses not to export the good because of the tariff, the american still pays the tariff because the party who does provide the good will jack up their price as a result of the competition. Now you could argue that the consumer pays 100% and the the supplier pays 50% because tariffs are inevitably a lose lose game.
Best economic theory says tariffs are completely paid by the consumer.
The problem with all of that is they BELIEVE IT, and Biden didn't dispel it.
I watched this damn thing and I couldn't believe this stuff, it was crazy, 4x taxes, Ukraine stuff, H2O, it's the most nonsensical stuff in the world, and it just doesn't matter because no one contradicted it.
The only way with Trump is to literally pull his pants down when he says stuff like this. I think Newsom could do it, probably a few other Dems could do it too. Whether they'll get the chance? Who knows. Why would Trump even agree to debate them if they replaced Biden?
Seriously, if it's really Joe "Sundowner" Biden, he never should have been within a 1,000 miles of the presidency, or this debate. Even sick he never should have been.
You guys gotta change if you can't put out something that beats those lies.
Trump lied non stop. HOWEVER, the most meaningful lie came from the Democratic party: Joe Biden is not okay mentally....
It's not Biden vs Trump. It's Biden vs Third Candidate + Stay At Home. Trump has got his 44% or so locked in whatever lies he tells. The Dem challenge is to take at least four-fifths of the 56% that remains and Biden can't do it. A younger candidate could, but he can't. Now his family encouraged him to stay in the race. So he will. And the next months will be full of the same feeling everyone who watched the debate had: one of dread. You know the trainwreck is coming, you're watching the train speed to the cliff, and there's no way to stop it.
I live in France and have the same feeling of dread re the elections here. Not because of the scores in the first round. But because of how the centrist parties reacted: by "firmly" saying "no vote to either the far right or the far left in the second round". That sounds neutral but isn't. It means a far right government. The only way to prevent it is for all other candidates who came in third place in their districts to withdraw, like the left, from moderates to radicals, immediately announced they would do. My hope was the center would do likewise. Then Philippe, Barnier et al went on tv and I knew it was over. I used to respect them. No more.
Next week, a train wreck in France. In November, a train wreck in the US. Both could be prevented. And won't be. It would hurt an old man's feelings. It would cause Mélenchon to win some seats, never mind he couldn't form a government with them anyway. Small, obvious sacrifices for an important end, and they can't be brought. And the people who won't bring them are even pretending to be principled.
"Both could be prevented."
Could it? I don't think so. Conservatives are nasty people and they now feel like they have permission to be really nasty. They are ready to empower a leadership to do their dirty work. They were always nasty, but now they are feeling empowered. We cannot placate them anymore. They will have their moment. How bad will it be? I have no idea, but I think we're gonna find out soon.
" Conservatives are nasty people and they now feel like they have permission to be really nasty. "
If Trump looses that will go down significantly, and when he is off the scene completely it will go down more. So there is a chance.
If he does win the US (and the rets of the world) is in deep shit, I think worse that what you (Justin) thinks.
Biden will have no problem getting 80% of your so called 56%. The greens will get their 1%. West won't be on the ballot. The libertarians will get their 1%. And kennedy is down to 6% in the polls.
David Brooks has a conversation with Steve Bannon. It's a doosy! Bullshit or the real deal? No one believes him. Here's hoping someone gives him the business in the prison shower!
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/01/opinion/steve-bannon-trump.html?unlocked_article_code=1.300.k4U_.WxN01YmRqw1Z&smid=url-share
Nothing about Black jobs?
Re #7. Can we please acknowledge that there are actually 2 distinct lies (at least 2). First, is the one Kevin called. The second is "Nancy Pelosi, ... saying, oh, no, it’s my responsibility, I was responsible for this." Total fiction and he said it twice.
These aren't lies. These are evidence of exceptional cognitive decline far worse than Biden's.