There are a surprising number of people who still don't know that a proper check of the 2000 presidential vote in Florida was conducted and concluded that Al Gore won. Here is CNN's summary:
A national media consortium — composed of CNN, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Tribune Company, The Washington Post, The Associated Press, The St. Petersburg Times, and The Palm Beach Post — paid for the National Opinion Research Center, or NORC, at the University of Chicago to review 175,010 disputed Florida ballots — 61,190 undervotes and 113,820 overvotes.
How it worked: NORC, a highly respected data and research organization, conducted the counting of ballots....Full statewide review
- Standard for acceptable marks set by each county in their recount: Gore wins by 171
- Fully punched chads and limited marks on optical scan ballots: Gore wins by 115
- Any dimple or optical mark: Gore wins by 107
- One corner of chad detached or any optical mark: Gore wins by 60
None of this means that Gore would ever have won the actual count in Florida. He never asked for a statewide recount, and those 113,820 overvotes never would have been tallied. George Bush legitimately won by the standard in use at the time.
Nevertheless, it's still a fact that a full count of all the votes shows that more Floridians voted for Gore than Bush. Just because Donald Trump is delusional doesn't mean that everyone else is too.
Is the GOP playing "Squid Game"? Maybe.
As a side note, because of all the anger this topic is bringing back up in me, check out this woman's twitter
https://twitter.com/ymmayer/status/1443671264091152396
She's going over what is actually being said vs what Netflix translated. There's a whole bunch of nuance being lost because of the various limitations so check her out if you liked the series.
There was something similar about the new translation of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Someone who has done work for netflix translations responds in that thread and it's an interesting mix of reasons why this happens with a nonzero part costing more money/time to improve things, within the limits of trying to match mouth movements on screen etc.
How would you even communicate some of the nuances without stopping the show in its tracks every 5 minutes? Maybe some sort of pop up video style overlay?
I do not envy the translators and netflix has a history of shortchanging them even more than the norm.
Some fansubs do just that. It's really the best way to watch subbed comedy.
Agreed. It was the Gore campaign's biggest miscalculation - they should have called for a statewide recount, which would have been harder for the Bush campaign to contest politically and legally, and which would have probably won it for them.
Florida did not have provisions for a statewide recount. But you are correct, they should have filed for a recount in every county to be sure.
Nevertheless, it would not have made any difference. His brother, the governor, his campaign manager, the secretary of state, and his father's cronies, the supreme court majority, would never have allowed a full recount.
The Florida State Supreme Court called for a statewide recount. The US Supreme Court put a stop to it.
Wm. Rehnquist just had to prove the US SCROTUS reigns supreme among all Supremes.
The never ending farce called American elections..
You have been at it since dec 1788 but you still haven’t figured out how to implement a fair election.
An inconvenient truth from a Swede
Sweden has a homogeneous population of 10 million. The US has a diverse population of 333 million. Come back when you have a meaningful comment from the peanut gallery.
That depends on your definition on diversity.
One definition (the racist one ) is color of skin.
The other one is having grown up in different countries, speaking different languages , educated in different educational systems , cheering different national soccer teams.
You are probably more diverse if we are using the first definition but you can’t match us if we are using the second one .
19,7% of people living in Sweden wasn’t born here (biggest groups are people from Syria and Iraq) your number is just 14,4%
We're not diverse by skin color alone, & it isn't racist to mention that as one aspect of our greater diversity.
I'll cede your greater percentage of soccer fans.
You mention languages & having grown up in other countries, as if our large number is no match for yours, but while your (mostly relatively recent, compared to ours?) Immigration percentage may be somewhat lower, ours has a longer overall history & larger cumulative number.
But I almost forgot: you don't like our "old" Constitution- which even Jefferson believed should be reviewed & revised as needed. We've continued to work on that unfinished project - while you still feel the need to have royalty.
But I do give props to your monarch for not being snarky as all get-out - he was willing to point out that Sweden officials' decision to herd immunity option in the face of the pandemic wasn't the best.
What puzzles this Swede is the US obsession with labeling people out of “race” or “ethnicity”
The U.S. Census Bureau considers race
and ethnicity to be two separate and distinct concepts
The Census Bureau defines race as a person’s self-identification with one or more social groups. An individual can report as White, Black or African American, Asian, American Indian and Alaska Native, Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, or some other race survey respondents may report or multiple races.
Ethnicity determines whether a person is of Hispanic origin or not. For this reason, ethnicity is broken out in two categories, Hispanic or Latino and not Hispanic or Latino. Hispanics may report as any race.
We don’t register either in my Sweden, although most Americans would be surprised over the diversity one can find walking down High Street in my little town.
Our queen is born in Brazil. Should she register as “Latino”?
But the real puzzle to me is that Americans who’s ancestors arrived on slave ships during the 17th century still mostly are defined as “African Americans “ , for some reason not just Americans.
The ones who’s ancestors arrived on the Mayflower isn’t defined as “British Americans “ ,just Americans
Trump isn’t defined as “German American” but it’s extremely important to state Mrs Harris race
For how long will the ancestors to Mrs Harris parents be labeled Indian-Afro American?
Might this custom make it harder to unite as one single country?
.....not that racism doesn’t exist in all countries, definitely also in my Sweden .
Your constitution hasn’t had an amended of any importance for 100 years, just some minor adjustments to safeguard if the president is incapacitated and to make sure he isn’t elected for life. The 24th was meant to make the 15 finally work but its still possible to circumvent it
The King?
Yes we have one by name you are having a de facto one
He was quoting a report by an unbiased agency something you still haven’t
Replying to sturestahle
Why be puzzled over tracking who we are? It is the only way to track if all Americans are able to enjoy all the fruits of US citizenship. The French way of ignoring the issue altogether resulted in a radicalization of ethnic minorities and occasional riots not to mention a society where they are systemically locked out of many paths to success.
Trump's father always denied his German roots, claimed he was Swedish. Trump inherited his father's penchant for deception, choosing to emphasize his Scottish heritage, maybe to hide his grandfather's brothel business? I don't know.
Because his German "roots" were Ashkenazi.
I am trying to reply to HokieAnnie…
Integration is tricky and I haven’t seen any nation who has succeeded that well , definitely not my Sweden but you shouldn’t brag about it or criticize others because the United States of America is the country not to copy . Your track record is lousy even if you have been at it for centuries
Race related riots aren’t just happening occasionally in USA and one cannot say that the path to fame and fortune is that easy for African Americans
Riots are a tradition in France but they aren’t race related that often , it’s more often farmers or railway workers… or something like that
You make some great points in both this post and the response to KawSunflower.
We Americans have real bad problem with "identity". We want to put people in "boxes" with those boxes having a group identifier on it.
Far too many Americans believe that TRUE Americans are White Anglo-Saxon Protestants -without exception.
This applies to race, sex, ethnicity, religious backgroud, income level, education level etc.
But we use that Identifier both as a positive and a negative. Its how we use that identifier that sets us apart from most other countries.
Kamala Harris is not just the VP, she's the first woman of color, of Asian heritage to hold the office. It is a sense of pride and prejudice that we use OTHER adjectives besides VP.
Once we start thinking of people without prejudice, we will have eliminated any form of discrimination or identity other than American
Nope.
that "farce of an election" came down to an official margin of 537 votes out of more than six million cast, or 0.009 percent. i'm sure a similarly close election in sweden would be resolved amicably among the parties involved without hardly a ruffled feather.
for the record we just conducted a fair election 10 months ago. dude named biden won by a margin of 7 million votes.
and i see once again that everything is honky dory in sweden. except of course for the increasing gang violence and the continuing surge of the far right wing sweden democrats and the possibility of a snap election.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/next-swedish-pm-face-gang-violence-rise-far-right-2021-08-23/
No , he won with just 43k votes…
You succeed in collecting and counting the votes properly and your courts withstood a flurry of ridiculous claims of fraud.
Are we supposed to be impressed by that?
The rules of the game was severely distorted, gerrymandering, voters suppression , the electoral college…
We're not diverse by skin color alone, & it isn't racist to mention that as one aspect of our greater diversity.
I'll cede your greater percentage of soccer fans.
You mention languages & having grown up in other countries, as if our large number is no match for yours, but while your (mostly relatively recent, compared to ours?) Immigration percentage may be somewhat lower, ours has a longer overall history & larger cumulative number.
But I almost forgot: you don't like our "old" Constitution- which even Jefferson believed should be reviewed & revised as needed. We've continued to work on that unfinished project - while you still feel the need to have royalty.
But I do give props to your monarch for not being snarky as all get-out - he was willing to point out that Sweden officials' decision to herd immunity option in the face of the pandemic wasn't the best.
I have been wondering why our "Swedish friend" never notices imperfections in his country - perhaps he lives in comfort & superiority in some news-poor gates community? The fact that there are far-right elements in Swedish society doesn't surprise me.
Gated communities doesn’t exist in Sweden, it’s more a US phenomena due to your archaic Constitution that grants people like James Holmes and Stephen Paddock the right to arm themselves.
Right wing extremists exist everywhere also in my Sweden. We have so far kept them out of influence contrary to our Nordic neighbors who has had them in government (Norway and Finland) or on and of for decades as kingmakers (Denmark) . Our despicable ones has so far not had the success in elections as their peers in neighboring countries has had
Our neighbors sure hasn’t benefited from it but our more advanced political systems over here has protected them from your catastrophic situation.
Donald J Trump had 46,1% of the votes, turnout 55% in 2016 that’s comparable to the Norwegians Framskrittspartiet having 22,9% (their best results so far) but they couldn’t end up in total power as your Republicans could since your Constitution allows a minority to also take control of the Congress
… but you do know that your founding fathers wasn’t that interested in democracy as it is practiced in more advanced countries today
Right wing extremists exist in Europe but they aren’t not that much of a problem compared to your situation.
Biggest problem are in Hungary and Poland but that’s about not succeeding in transferring to democracy otherwise are they kept in plac
Right wing??? When debt markets collapse they will fade from history as will your government. Let's don't kid. US democrats stink with swing voters lately.
He is blinded by the brilliance of Zlatan Ibrahimovic.
Talk about going of topic…
It's like having over 50 countries holding separate elections between all the states and territories included within the United Stares, 9 of which are large than Sweden.
Besides, Florida has been an electoral problem child for a long long time.
Step one to having fair elections would be to have them done nationally. When things are in control of states it is asking for various kinds of manipulation. And this could be worse in upcoming elections. How do other countries do it?
In my opinion are you having a lot of flaws in your system but the biggest problem is to allow the ones in power to set the rules for their own re-elections and they are supposed to be controlled by courts manned by politicians dressed up in black robes impersonating judges
Elections must be implemented by an unbiased organization.
+1 snap election
... oh, wait, that's parliamentary systems.
Snap election ???
You sound like a Trump supporter claiming fraud in 2020. I get tired of arguing with those people.
Also, the 2000 election was fair. It just happened to all come down to one state where the vote count was razor close, and getting the exact count with the level of accuracy needed was difficult. This was not a "farce" as you call it. It was a fluke to have an election this close.
A couple of bits to add, the reason why the Gore camp only requested county recounts was the law at the time was restricted to counties and they had literally only one lawyer in the whole state with that specialty (who was immediately fired from his firm) who had to fly between counties to represent the cases there, restricting how many they could manage.
The other is that the state justice (the chief justice iirc) in charge of the case was supposedly heavily considering not just ruling for a statewide recount but also including the overvotes, which for some reason I don't know the Gore camp didn't include in their challenges. That route ended with the SCOTUS decision. If anyone knows the reason they left out overvotes I'd love to hear.
Might as well add that the consortium that did the recount was scheduled to go public with their report the month after 9/11, so at least at the time it felt like they didn't want to cast doubt on Bush during an emergency.
The law allowed Gore to only request recounts on a county basis and not a state-wide basis. Drove me up a wall at that time that Gore was criticized for not asking for a state-wide recount when he was prohibited from doing so. But the law was also clear that if the intent of the voter was clear then the ballot should be counted. One of the common forms of overvote was to check the box for Gore and then on the line for write-ins to put in Gore's name. The intent was clear but those ballots appear to generally not have been counted - at least initially. I don't know why the Gore team didn't request explicitly that overvotes be counted but my guess is that they didn't think it necessary since it should have been an automatic part of the recount process.
Thanks for the added info
There were so many things that drove me nuts over this, SCOTUS not signing the ruling and saying it was a one off, the GOP arguing against the states rights for elections while arguing the opposite in Arizona iirc. Lots of people say demarcation between the 20th and 21st century was 9/11, I think of this.
Did a fresh round of searching but no luck on finding the answer to the overvotes not being included from the Gore camp challenges, the answer has probably aged out of googles indexes.
Still no joy on finding out why on the initial choice on overvotes, but did find this Isikoff/Newsweek piece on the Judge's notes about accepting them for a recount.
https://archive.ph/RAWnx
Buried deep in the files of the mammoth Florida litigation, Newsweek has uncovered hastily scribbled faxed notes written by Terry Lewis, the plain-speaking, mystery-novel writing state judge in charge of the Florida recount, that potentially changed the calculations rather substantially.
The previously undisclosed notes lend firm documentary support to recent comments by Lewis that he might well have expanded the Florida Supreme Court-ordered statewide recount of "undervotes"--the disputed ballots in which machines did not record any vote for president. The notes show that--just hours before the U.S. Supreme Court issued its order--Lewis was actively considering directing the counties to also count an even larger category of disputed ballots, the so-called "overvotes," which were rejected by the machines because they purportedly recorded more than one vote for president.
... "Judge, if you would, segregate 'overvotes' as you describe and indicate in your final report how many where you determined the clear intent of the voter," Lewis wrote in a note to Judge W. Wayne Woodard, chairman of the Charlotte County Canvassing Board on the afternoon of December 9, 2000. "I will rule on the issue for all counties, Thanks, Terry Lewis."
thanks
I may be missing something here but there didn’t seem to be a limit on the number of counties where a recount could be requested so my assumption would be that Gore could’ve achieved the functional equivalent of a statewide recount by filing a request in every county. Which doesn’t seem like an insurmountable obstacle.
While technically true the problem was having a Florida lawyer with election law background be in every county to be recounted. The problem being was that the Gore camp only had one lawyer who was immediately fired from his firm, and every other firm bowed to the pressure of the GOP and refused to aid Gore. While the Fl SC was still liberal leaning then the state political engine had already gone solid GOP so the rest of the lawyers knew the pain it would be to go against the current GOP political machine.
My impression at the time was the picked what they could manage to fly the lawyer to in hopes of pressing the Fl SC into a full state recount, which almost happened to SCOTUS shut it down.
I appreciate your relating the decision of the Gore campaign and the leadership of the Democratic Party but that is a totally insane reason for essentially conceding the presidency. Lawyers are a fairly adaptable group and are, essentially, hired guns anyway. So hiring a bunch of them to go fight with the local Republican politicians seems like a no-brainer; even if they achieve nothing you’ve no worse off than when you started.
I find it laughable and highly unlikely that in the entire state of Florida there was only one lawyer willing to represent the Gore campaign. The Democrats can always find a reason why it’s too hard to do things, always an excuse, always an unwillingness to confront Republicans or offend the villagers. We need leaders who do what is necessary, get what they want, and don’t worry about patching things up until later.
I've spent the morning looking around for any live links to follow up what I wrote last night and not having much luck. Though I did find the FL judge and his notes about including the overvotes for a recount now added above.
Sadly the only things I can point you to to confirm what I remember from the time that I can pull out of my brain is the HBO docudrama Recount, which includes the one lawyer and the problems they had with getting more specialists in the state.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1000771/
it's streaming on HBOMax and Prime and I just checked and his name is Mark Herron and he first shows up around minute 47 (and they fired him on his birthday). Googling him the only lasting links I can find on him are about the can of worms of late Military ballots which is it's own microcosm on how IOKIYAAR.
I appreciate your efforts and, to be clear, my quarrel is not with you but is with the campaign and the party. It seems obvious to me that a good courtroom lawyer fighting an uphill battle is infinitely better than not even trying because you lack a sufficient number of election law experts.
As if the Goristas in Oct. 2001 would have risen up like the Trumpers at the March on Washington, January 6, 2021, had the truth willed out.
If anything, the Leftist versions of QANON Shamen & Ashlis Babbitt would have revolted IN FAVOR OF Bush, either to accelerate the revolution or because Bush was less a Mideast hawk than Gore would have been.
"and those 113,820 overvotes never would have been tallied. "
I think this is incorrect. The judge actually in charge of the recount said publicly that overvotes would be counted
Iirc he made the comment only hours before SCOTUS shut the recount down. I'm fuzzy on details but I remember the feel of hope and it being crushed that day.
Agggggrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrr....(me jumping off a tall building, I did not need to hear this from an authoritative source late on a Friday night).
More sounds of teeth gnashing and soft sobs from my wounded heart.
(don't tell me things I don't want to know because they are to painful to bear).
Best Wishes, (and good night!) Traveller
***********************OFF TOPIC************************
Well we finally know SOMETHING About natural immunity with COVID
https://news.yale.edu/2021/10/01/unvaccinated-reinfection-sars-cov-2-likely-study-finds
Throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, there has been much uncertainty about how long immunity lasts after an unvaccinated person is infected with SARS-CoV-2.
Now a team of scientists led by faculty at Yale School of Public Health and the University of North Carolina at Charlotte have an answer: Strong protection following natural infection is short-lived.
***************“Reinfection can reasonably happen in three months or less,”***************said Jeffrey Townsend, the Elihu Professor of Biostatistics at the Yale School of Public Health and the study’s lead author. “Therefore, those who have been naturally infected should get vaccinated. Previous infection alone can offer very little long-term protection against subsequent infections.”
The study, published in the journal The Lancet Microbe, is the first to determine the likelihood of reinfection following natural infection and without vaccination.
Townsend and his team analyzed known reinfection and immunological data from the close viral relatives of SARS-CoV-2 that cause “common colds,” along with immunological data from SARS-CoV-1 and Middle East Respiratory Syndrome. Leveraging evolutionary principles, the team was able to model the risk of COVID-19 reinfection over time.
*****************Reinfections can, and have, happened even shortly after recovery, the researchers said.**************** And they will become increasingly common as immunity wanes and new SARS-CoV-2 variants arise.
“We tend to think about immunity as being immune or not immune. Our study cautions that we instead should be more focused on the risk of reinfection through time,” said Alex Dornburg, assistant professor of bioinformatics and genomics at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, who co-led the study. “As new variants arise, previous immune responses become less effective at combating the virus. Those who were naturally infected early in the pandemic are increasingly likely to become reinfected in the near future.”
The team’s data-driven model reveals striking similarities to the reinfection risks over time between SARS-CoV-2 and endemic coronaviruses.
“Just like common colds, from one year to the next you may get reinfected with the same virus,” Townsend said. “The difference is that, during its emergence in this pandemic, COVID-19 has proven to be much more deadly.”
A hallmark of the modern world is going to be the evolution of new threats to human health, Townsend added. Evolutionary biology — which provided the theoretical foundations for these analyses — is traditionally considered a historical discipline.
“However, our findings underscore its important role in informing decision-making, and provide a crucial steppingstone toward robust knowledge of our prospects of resistance to SARS-CoV-2 reinfection,” he said.
Co-authors include researchers from Temple University. Funding for the research was provided by the U.S. National Science Foundation.
**************************************************************************
It's ONLY one study, so far
But only lasts a very short time?
Pfizer is the worst of the vaccines
The others are MUCH better than Pfizer
And apparently much better than natural immunity
There is practically no difference between Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines other than dosage. Are you suggesting the mRNA vaccines are not useful? This seems implausible given that most serious disease is among unvaccinated or those with compromised immune systems. I’m sure we all want a vaccine which prevents all infections and transmission but that doesn’t seem to be available now.
JUstin
I have REPEATEDLY said Pfizer was the weaker of the big 4
And the vaccines are meant to reduce the seriousness of the disease not eliminate the virus
The PROBLEM we have is that Pfizer was first to roll out and had the field to itself for several months. MILLIONS of people took Pfizer and the protections given by Pfizer have worn off to the point that they basically have no protections at all UNLESS they get a booster - which Israel is doing along with a boost to the booster as they are planning on round 4 already
But the herd immunity argument is one of the MAIN DRIVERS of the anti vax crowd IIRC
This study, and it's only one study says that the herd immunity is very short lived compared to vaccine immunity - with Pfizer being the weakest of the vaccines
Nope. Herd immunity is the natural way this ends. I mean, accept it. Look at OC43. There were on and off outbreaks for 10 years, in decreasing lengths. Your post represents ignorance and denial of science.
Recent reports show that Moderna offers longer lasting protection, though it may have worse side effects. J&J doesn't give the same level of protection, but it does not seem to fade as quickly either. Pfizer is boosting booster shots--and that may be needed for their vaccine. J&J booster will bring their vaccine up to Pfizer and Moderna levels of protection against infection. It's not that mRNA vaccines are inherently better--it's just that different decisions were made in their development. J&J went for a single shot dose--Pfizer and Moderna went with boosters, which I venture to guess was because they were not sure how well the protection would last.
They all do very well in preventing hospitalizations and deaths, though those with underlying conditions still have to take extra precautions.
The two mRNA vaccines are different. The different levels of the active ingredient may not mean that much since they can have different levels of effectiveness, e.g. one may be more efficient in getting into cells than the other.
There is no doubt the vaccines act differently and the Moderna (which I got) did offer higher protection levels at the time i got it. ow we know that the Moderna protection lasted longer.
The thrust of the article was that "Herd Immunity" is far less effective than originally thought it would be.
Now we have a totally new problem
We have those who had Covid but didn't realize it
Those that had it in mild form
And those that got the Pfizer vaccine from Dec 2020 right through May of 2021
All with protection that is non existant or so low as to be ineffective.
We JUST learned that we have a whole NEW population for Delta to infect
(Reuters) -The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is leaning toward authorizing half-dose booster shots of the Moderna Inc COVID-19 vaccine, Bloomberg News reported https://bloom.bg/3EXGHjA on Tuesday, citing people familiar with the matter.
They will all offer booster shots eventually. Moderna may be better nay some measure… time will tell. But their real problem is they can’t make enough. Pfizer has the scale to produce.
Be careful--different issues are being discussed.
In general, natural immunity wanes, and re-infections can hit hard. Unlike with, way measles, there is not a strong immune "memory".
With vaccines, the neutralizing antibodies will wane, which means you are more susceptible to re-infection. However, the re-infections are not too bad for most, so it still prevents most hospitalizations and deaths. That is, the immune system developed a "memory" so it can ramp up the defenses quickly to prevent series disease, and limit spread, even if that does not prevent infection.
Yes, more studies need to be done, but it's not like those injected with Pfizer are now suddenly completely vulnerable. Those who think their immune because they were infected--well that's another story. "Natural immunity" isn't doing well this time around.
and meant to link to this write up discussing vaccine development:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/10/pfizer-won-vaccine-race-was-there-downside/620276/
Nope, natural immunity never totally wanes. For some it takes the body a few times "getting it" before it gets how to really knock it down. But each times it becomes less intense. Laziness in analysis and denial of science by center-left blows me away.
@golack -
Be careful with the breakthrough cases......there are more of them and more of them are serious.
But also watch the new variants.
One of the things the Israelis discovered about Mu is that it disrupts the "communication link" between the cells that attack the new virus and the memory cells that attack future variants.
Its kinda like "protection with Alzheimers" the antibodies attack the current variant but rapidly forget what they did and how they did it. This is what makes the newest mutations so dangerous And we know that Mu is ravaging South America. Also, they are coming OUT of their winter and heading into their spring
But overall I believe like you that natural immunity is and has been HIGHLY overestimated in it's effectiveness against COVID - for now
Lol nope. Natural immunity is highly effective stopping spread. It's why after these outbreaks happen they stop. Look at the collapsing delta wave in the US.
Your easily the most.idiotic poster on this subject. Just a waste of breath.
From the link you provided…
“A smaller dose would be easier to manufacture and less likely to produce side effects.”
The part about being easier to manufacture is a bit misleading. Instead of 5 or 6 doses per vial, they could have just recommended the shot contain more volume. 3 or 4 doses. Anyway… I don’t have strong opinions on the difference except to assert that both are so effective (still) that arguing people are at risk seems overwrought.
And this is mostly a supply race not an effectiveness race. A friend of mine got a 3rd Moderna shot at full dose! He was sick as a dog for two days. Poor guy. Fine now of course.
Pfizer is going to bang out 3 billion doses this year and maybe more than 4 billion in 2022. Moderna will only get 1 billion made this year and 3 billion in 2022. In a year there will be enough for everyone in the world even with boosters. (Including non mRNA). The differences in effectiveness will become irrelevant soon enough.
REmember back in June/July we were talking about what the heck was going on in Israel with their .08% break through rate that was abnormally HIGH?
This is ONE COUNTY in California:
https://www.sanluisobispo.c...
Unvaccinated San Luis Obispo County residents continue to dominate local COVID-19 case counts, hospitalizations and deaths, according to new county Public Health Department data.
About 77% of local COVID-19 cases, nearly 84% of hospitalizations and 78% of deaths since June 15 have involved people who aren’t fully vaccinated, public health officials reported on Friday.
That means about 23% of people who have contracted COVID-19, 16% of people who’ve received hospital treatment for the virus and about 22% of people who’ve died due to coronavirus have been fully vaccinated.
People who are fully vaccinated against coronavirus have received both doses of the two-shot Pfizer and Moderna series or have gotten the one-dose Johnson & Johnson shot.
The Public Health Department last reported unvaccinated COVID-19 case, hospitalization and death percentages in late August and plans to update the data every month.
***********************************************************************
This is astonishing to me - a 23% breakthrough rate
But also brings out that our vaccine protections aren't as good as indicated
And it's not just Pfizer
Breakthrough cases are overblown and don't lead to actual illness. We test too much. Period.
@vog46
Ok you win. Everyone with the Pfizer vaccine is doomed. They should stay home. I have personal reasons for wishing the Pfizer vaccine approval is withdrawn so I have no real problem with your info.
Justin-
I am responding to your post below about Pfizer recipients being doomed
No, that is not the case. The problem is timing. We are objecting to two shots, or one shot of the vaccine. How in the hell are we gonna get out population to get a 3rd and 4th booster like the Israelis are?
If Delta had come first we "may" have been better off. Remember how long it took between initial diagnosis with CV and the first vaccine roll out? In that same time frame just about everyone would have had Delta, recovered and achieved herd immunity. We would have then had MONTHs before the next wave hit to develop a vaccine.
But we dawdled, we politicized the virus, we made it a symbol of success or failure. Along the way the virus showed us the drawbacks of NOT having a national healthcare system or at the very least a national data base for health issues that cannot be adjusted by governors or either party.
We have also minimized the concept of death. "Oh its ok, it't just old folks". Or "Its ok they were about to die because of cancer anyway". Or, "Its ok the deaths are happening in republican states".
We toss these statements out without remorse, which is discouraging
Why we are even having these discussions is beyond me
And U of M just found that infection + 1 shot is hugely superior to infection alone OR 2 shots. 5 times as many B cells!
Alaska hospitals now limiting care:
https://www.fingerlakes1.com/2021/10/03/alaska-has-three-hospitals-rationing-healthcare-to-patients-amid-covid-surge/
There are now three hospitals in Alaska that have instituted crisis protocols as their healthcare system struggles to handle the COVID surge they currently face.
Crisis protocols allow facilities to ration care if it becomes necessary.
Between Sept. 22 and 29, data collected by Johns Hopkins University Center for Systems Science and Engineering revealed that************ one out of every 84 people in the state of Alaska had COVID.
West Virginia has one out of every 164 people.***************
On Friday, Fairbanks Memorial Hospital in Alaska activated the crisis protocol due to a shortage in beds and staff. They’re also unable to transfer patients to other facilities.
Hospitals in Anchorage and Bethel have already activated the protocol.
**********************************************************
This is not a good sign
From Sept 29 - a part of a post from Rational Thought regarding Alaska
"But Hospitalization and icu usage does not seem quite as bad as you would expect with those numbers. Is the high case count partially due to high testing catching a higher percentage of cases ?"
We are desperately seeking affirmation of our beliefs by using daily data to buttress our arguments
Number of cases is declining, on a whole nationwide. I have read several articles that are alluding to the fact that breakthroughs are increasing as are the number of SERIOUS break through cases. This should have been expected as protection does vary from person to person, from vaccine to vaccine. Pfizer's protection is worse than others and the people who got it - were the ones at highest risk early on in our vaccine push.
THAT's tragic but this is also a NOVEL coronavirus and has stumped us before and will stump us again
Heh, heh, heh,
From someone whoe DOES know better:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-03/biontech-ceo-says-new-covid-vaccines-will-be-needed-in-2022-ft
The head of BioNTech SE, the German company that developed the first Covid-19 vaccine, said a new formula is likely to be needed by mid-2022 to protect against future mutations of the virus.
Ugur Sahin, co-founder and chief executive officer of BioNtech, told the Financial Times that while current variants of Covid-19, such as the contagious delta strain, were not different enough to undermine current vaccinations, **********new strains will emerge that can evade booster shots and the body’s immune defenses.**************
“This year [a different vaccine] is completely unneeded, but by mid-next year, it could be a different situation,” he said. “This is a continuous evolution, ********and that evolution has just started.”**********
BioNTech partnered with U.S. pharmaceuticals giant Pfizer Inc. to develop its Covid-19 vaccine. Last month, the companies submitted initial data to U.S. regulators about the use of the vaccine in children aged 5 to 11, one step closer to bringing shots to school-age kids.
*************************************************
Interesting stuff from someone who knows far more than any of us know
Lol, nope. There won't be anybody that hasnt had it by then. When outbreaks end to be notable, so will any care about this "disease". It's why Biden's faux mandate was silly.
You simply don't respect the science Vog.
Our last discussion spade
From a previous post of YOURS
Spadesofgrey
October 2, 2021 – 2:31 pm at
Actually, a lot of the military are left wing fascists in the classical sense. Eco-terrorists, homophobic, anti-cosmopolitan. That is my view from army special forces. Sure you have contards and some libtards. But it's not plurality like people think.
So as a special froces guy you rolled up your sleeve or dropped your drawers or opened your mouth to take every vaccine, every pill and every shot the Army MADE you take
You are either a bold faced liar
A two faced idiot
Or a troll
Whatever the answer is we're done. Have a great life
I assume Shooter/SpadesOfGrey has ecoterror on the brain because of the confirmation hearing for joebiden's Bureau of Land Management designate.
That said, heavy rock could redeem itself after its January 6, 2021, March on Washington nadir, when John Schaeffer from Iced Earth joined the Trumpist horde in besieging the Capitol, if Karl Buchner were to reunite Earth Crisis to play a guerrilla show on the Capitol Steps in support of the BLM nominee. I bet even spoilsport Ian Mac Kaye would be cool with it.
BLM?????bhahaha. You mean a real black group like Hammer, right???? BLM's Russian backing never mentioned.......
Bold faced truth teller. Your the liar and should have their nose snapped for punishment of your denial.
Alaskans in need of crisis but non-COVID care should just slip over the border to Canada, like Sarah Palin bragged she & her family did.
I suppose I’m glad Bush won. He managed to demonstrate the incompetence of the US military and get thousands (millions?) killed in the process. He exposed American exceptionalism as a lie. I hope someday this becomes apparent to enough citizens that we recognize the danger posed by the US military and its corporate owners. Instead of honoring “veterans” we should exterminate them. They are all right wing fascists anyway.
Wow
Exterminate Veterans?
We are all right wing fascists anyway?
@Vog46
Justin needs a hug. He's not getting enough attention.
No hug required. I just despise all military. I take advantage of any opportunities to say it.
As a veteran let me say this:
I have no problem with that outlook Justin. Keep it up
I appreciate Justin's robust dovishness, but methinks he tends to paint with a broad brush, and with the jarringest colors straight from the tube.
I understand the squeamishness. I reserve most of my contempt for those more recent (post 2002) people who worked making war. Older folks and especially those of the generations drafted to Vietnam, Korea, etc are not as blameworthy. I’ll try to be more precise in the future.
"Older folks and especially those of the generations drafted to Vietnam, Korea, etc are not as blameworthy. "
Really?
Wow...........
I don't see how you can call it "dovish" to wish for mass murder. Misanthropic, at best.
We put criminals in jail. We often execute murderers.
This is despicable behavior but you can’t bring yourself to admit it. The people guilty of actual murder get away with it.
The bad news stemming from the ill-planned and ill-managed U.S. evacuation of the Afghan capital just kept coming in. The Washington Post put it this way in blowing the whistle on the culminating disaster: “U.S. military admits ‘horrible mistake’ in Kabul drone strike that killed 10 Afghans.”
Following the August 26th terrorist attack outside Hamid Karzai International Airport that took the lives of 13 American troops and dozens of Afghan bystanders, U.S. forces set out to preempt any repetition. Alas, efforts to prevent further U.S. casualties resulted in the killing of innocents, including seven Afghan children. “Horrible mistake” was Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin’s characterization of their deaths.
The result was not what General Kenneth F. McKenzie, Jr., head of United States Central Command (CENTCOM), intended. To his credit, McKenzie did acknowledge that he was “fully responsible for this strike and its tragic outcome.” The four-star Marine general went a step further. In a recorded video statement, he offered his “profound condolences to the family and friends of those who were killed.”
It’s easy enough to understand McKenzie’s sense of remorse. Who wouldn’t have felt dismayed — bummed out, even — that such a humiliating blunder should mark the conclusion of a failed twenty-year war? And just as Uncle Sam was limping toward the exit, hoping to leave with a modicum of dignity intact, Fortune itself seemingly let loose one last gratuitous kick, one final insult to the self-proclaimed greatest military on the planet.
Maybe Justin has the same definition of dove as Maureen Dowd.
They are all right wing fascists anyway.
What a bunch of Hooey ... particularly since more than a few of the commenters here personally know people who are either actively serving or were once in the service (I've got four or five family members who were in the Army/Navy that are still breathing myself.) A deeply unserious assertion made by a deeply unserious lightweight. Go peddle your hokum elsewhere.
Many likes!
Why do so many people you know want to kill others? Oh never mind. 😂
Oh dear Lord. Yet another pissant who thinks urine is 'edgy'; in reality it's just a worn-out old drunk soiling itself on the sidewalk and daring people to make eye contact as they carefully step around the hot mess.
Those worn out drunks on the sidewalk? Veterans.
It’s apparently a thing.
“Research indicates that those who served in the late Vietnam and post-Vietnam eras are at the greatest risk of becoming homeless but that veterans from more recent wars and conflicts are also affected. Veterans returning from deployments in Afghanistan and Iraq often face invisible wounds of war, including traumatic brain injury and post-traumatic stress disorder, both of which correlate with homelessness.”
Poor babies.
Suicidal freaks!
A recent study of Veterans serving during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars between 2001–2007 found that both deployed and non-deployed Veterans had a significantly higher suicide risk compared to the U.S. general population.
Rapists too.
For decades, sexual assault and harassment have festered through the ranks of the armed forces with military leaders repeatedly promising reform and then failing to live up to those promises.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/03/magazine/military-sexual-assault.html
Such an honorable profession.
Actually, a lot of the military are left wing fascists in the classical sense. Eco-terrorists, homophobic, anti-cosmopolitan. That is my view from army special forces. Sure you have contards and some libtards. But it's not plurality like people think.
Well, then you must be well familiar with the takeover of the military's clerical corps by fundamentalist Evangelicals, and how this is particularly pervasive at JSOC.
But thanks for the definition of "left wing" that is either obsolete or hopelessly counter-factual.
Again. I use left wing in the traditional sense like many still do(your either a revolutionary or not). Everything you mention is irrelevant. You are staring at chunks. I am looking at the whole picture. Many a degrowther and eco-rallies a vet have come. I have talked to them, worked among them. What more do you want???? You represent what I call a dialectical warrior. You don't pay attention to what's going on, but read biased media with a axe to grind.
Another prime example of how the Supreme Court is not political at all.
The Republican party is corrupt. Trump just ripped down the facade. Democrats have to repair the damage, again.....
There are a surprising number of people who still don't know that a proper check of the 2000 presidential vote in Florida was conducted and concluded that Al Gore won.
How it could it possibly be that Americans don't know that Al Gore won more votes than George Bush in Florida?
Here's the NY Times article about the results of the media consortium's recount:
https://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/us/examining-vote-analysis-who-won-florida-answer-emerges-but-surely-not-final-word.html
The key part may be this: "See the article in its original context from November 12, 2001, Section A, Page 16."
It was two months after 9/11, one month after the invasion of Afghanistan, the president's approval rating was 87%, and no time for "an inconvenient truth." The story about who should have won the previous year's presidential election was buried on Page 16 by the nation's most important news organization. The Times used a different standard for what qualifies as Page 1 news in another election, when it published 10 front-page stories on Hillary Clinton's emails over a 6-day period immediately before its favored candidate, Donald Trump, won the presidency.
As Eric Alterman once said, What liberal media?
Of course, Eric Alterman still willingly writes for the OG Accelerationists at the Nation, so it's not like he has an unblemished record of not being a fleftist deadender like those trustfund wankers at theintercept or Jacobin.
No large state based on raw votes has been as close as Florida was that year. Really a amazing note considering Gore wasn't even looking competitive there until the Bush dui charges. Notice Bush beating Gore in Ohio by almost 4%. No state where the production vs consumption politics comes into play like Ohio. It's a beauty pageant.
If it was wrong for Gore to request recounts in selected counties why is it ok for Trump to be doing the same this year?
IOKIYAAR.
And yes, it's time for that to go!
The same reason the GOP argued against states rights in Fl while arguing the exact opposite in Az (iirc) for their recount.
"If it was wrong for Gore to request recounts in selected counties .."
Wrong in the sense of a tactical error.
Yes, Gore never played this right into getting Bush politically into a area where popular consent forced Bush to concede.
Someone earlier (the Swede, I think) said "Elections must be implemented by an unbiased organization."
I wholeheartedly agree with that principle as a goal. To me, the tough question is: How does a society composed of human beings accomplish that with reliability?
I fully understand that having laws and regulations governing the conduct of elections can go a long way, but the bottom line is that human beings are involved in the monitoring and enforcement of those guardrails. It always comes down to having trustworthy humans doing the work.
Both Nixon and Reagan committed sedition to get elected, and Dubya Bush and Trump got into office through semi-legitimate coups. (There are criminal cases outstanding from the 2016 election that nobody seems to report about...)
And things are only getting worse. Twitler has made Fascism fashionable among the radical right.
Trump’s Candidate for Arizona Governor Says She Would Not Have Certified Biden’s Victory
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/10/trump-candidate-gop-arizona-governor-kari-lake-big-lie/
Like that matters. Kari Lake(fake surname) is irrelevant. I take office no matter what, or Kari Lake does. This is a little factoid that goes beyond these people. When capitalism begins its liquidation, countries and regional state governments will bankrupt and collapse. Famine, death, Kari Lake wouldn't matter as a individual. More likely Kari Lake would be tortured and exterminated as starvation set in.
Any relation to that choad, Eli?
"George Bush legitimately won by the standard in use at the time." This is false. Under Florida law, Gore won, with no ambiguity. By law, consistent over-votes were supposed to be counted. That is a vote with two separate indicators of the same candidate choice. For example, a hole-punch card with the Gore hole punched, and also the word "Gore" written in pen.
There were a few thousand consistent overvotes, some for Bush but more for Gore. Apparently some voting activists had suggested in voter-education and registration drives in minority neighborhoods that people add the name in pen after using the machine -- "just to be sure."
All overvotes were thrown out, including the consistent ones, in violation of the law, but the Gore campaign did not catch this. If you count them all as the law required, Gore wins, period.
This DailyKos post has information on this, with citations to the expert on all of these issues, Lance DeHaven Smith:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/1/7/176855/-
(That post is a bit confusing with some errors and corrections in the Updates, but what can you do.)