Fog of war and all that, but, um, yeah:
Where's the photo of the Hamas command center and the entrance to the underground tunnel network? Because 10 AKs and half a dozen hand grenades doesn't cut it when you're trying to justify an attack on a HOSPITAL. https://t.co/RJOtVZanWi
— Brandon Friedman (@BFriedmanDC) November 15, 2023
The New York Times confirms this:
A day after the Israeli military took control of Gaza’s largest hospital, soldiers on Thursday afternoon were still combing the site that Israel has said concealed a secret Hamas base, but had yet to present much evidence supporting that claim to the public.
An Israeli military spokesman said that the search of the hospital grounds would take time because “Hamas knew we were coming” and had made off with or hidden traces of their presence there.
Am I the only one whose thoughts are going back to the search for WMD in Iraq? If this episode is typical of current Israeli intelligence, it's going to be a long, bloody war.
You'd think they'd have found more than the contents of a random pickup truck in rural America!
I'm always shocked that governments don't just fake it. They seem fine with bombing tons of civilians over non-existent threats, so why not just plant some evidence or fake up some photos? Their supporters won't care.
Because the soldiers are true believers. They don't think they need to fabricate, they just need to find what's there. On my optimistic days I think this is what's going to happen during the election next year. All of the Republican election deniers in charge of elections are going to count honestly because they really believe there was fraud. They are going to be seriously shocked when they lose, but they won't have prepared to fake it.
"All of the Republican election deniers in charge of elections are going to count honestly because they really believe there was fraud."
Interesting theory, but I doubt it. Maybe some of them actually believe there was fraud, but they also believe that it is reasonable to do fraud to elect Trump.
For most of them, they will count approximately honestly because they are worried of being caught, and are not dedicated enough to risk it. If they feel it is not risky, they will miscount.
You can tell it's real because there were no copies of the "The Sims" found amidst the cache of weapons.
They uncovered a tunnel and access point between buildings.
I don't know about other cities, but, here in Minneapolis, tunnels between buildings are very common.
Uh huh. Dirt tunnels are very common in Minneapolis.
BTW, the tunnel is visually going parallel to the buildings.
Also, with a shallow permafrost in MN, I imagine those dirt tunnels must be cold and difficult to keep at room-temperature.
Really? A dirt tunnel?
A number of things just sound off. Hamas aren't idiots, they knew they were under constant aerial surveillance. You wouldn't put an access to a central command and control facility in the open, between buildings, where comings and goings could be monitored. I would think that there would be multiple entrances, well away from the center, and concealed from above, so that none would be so busy as to draw attention. Some would never be used, to avoid their discovery, just kept for emergency use.
You would put your command center deep enough that an Israeli bomb wouldn't affect it, which means the walls and ceilings would need reinforcement; wood, or preferably concrete. You wouldn't want dirt in your computers and electronics, either.
So finding one tunnel with a (single?), exposed access doesn't sound anything like what would be expected for a command center.
Rather than admit that Israel can tell the truth at times and lie at other times, there are people who will overreach, claiming that Israel cannot be trusted because they always lie.
As I wrote before, there was unusually strong fighting around al-Shifa, and rather than go straight into al-Shifa they surrounded it and held position for a couple of days, which lent credence that Hamas was using it for its own purposes, unrelated to healthcare.
Lots of people rejected this, stating that Israel lies.
Well, I'll bet $5 that you have lied in the past. Should we consider you to be a liar whose statements cannot be trusted? Of course not. We all lie, exaggerate, and make mistakes.
Some however, cannot admit when they're wrong or have made an error. So yeah, Minneapolis also has tunnels, but that's irrelevant.
The problem is that Israel lies all the time.
Israel put a lot of eggs in that Al-Shifa basket. If they find nothing then you can’t count on Israeli Intelligence for any attack. It’s as big a failure as the one that led to the October 7th attack. Lots of heads should roll including Netanyahu’s.
"Lots of heads should roll including Netanyahu’s."
Literally. Or, force Bibi and others to deliver supplies (medical and other) directly to Palestinians.
Mr N's head should already have rolled, but yeah. So far this is quite a murderous fiasco.
Why would anyone expect that the people who set the table for a colossal mess like this could, in any way, have a hope of fixing it? Those people deserve to be walking point in Gaza City.
It looks like some information that adds credibility to Israeli claims is starting to emerge - evidence of tunnels, hostage video from Al-Shifa.
Israeli credibility is low - time for some independent observers to be let in.
Manufacturing reasons for conflict is an old Israeli tactic, well practiced. This is not a Jewish tactic. The tactic is part and parcel of the right wing in Israel, many times confused with the Jewish religion.
This. I've come to separate Judaism from Israel, just as I separate Christianity from the Christian right wing.
I guess this makes me an anti-semite. (sigh)
I have been saying something of the sort for many years. If you're a space-race kid like I was, you remember Venn diagrams. Picture a circle for people who actually practice the Jewish religion regardless where they live, another circle for the Jewish ethnic group which persisted with relatively little intermarriage outside the ethnic group since the Romans initiated the diaspora regardless where they live, another circle for residents of Israel regardless of religion or lack thereof, another circle for residents of Israel who actually have full citizenship regardless of religion or lack thereof and, I suppose, another circle for people who believe in the divine right of ownership to any plot of ground in the "Holy Land" regardless who legally owns it right now. A person can be called antiSemitic for dissing any one of these circles.
It's more like "typical of standard Israeli PR."
Democracy Now! has been covering the destruction of Gaza with observers on site in Gaza, including the al-Shifa hospital. The doctors and staff there have consistently insisted that there's no Hamas base, tunnels, or presence. They further noted that Israel has bombed and invaded numerous Gaza hospitals under this lame cover story, only to find nothing -- except dead and dying patients and staff, which I guess for Israel is "Win-Win!!"
However, the day is young and it's easy to manufacture "evidence" when you're the only one who gets to tell the story. Not to mention, the only one the United States listens to.
You can’t manufacture a large tunnel complex. It’s either there or it’s not. Israel clearly thought it was. If it isn’t, it’s a massive failure since it destroys their credibility in such matters.
No, but you can present video of things that look as if a "massive tunnel complex" was found. It doesn't have to be near al-Shifa, or even in Gaza. Or in the right time frame. Who's gonna go and look for themselves, with Israel putting targets on the backs of people with "Press" insignia?
If there is a large tunnel complex under the hospital I’m sure Israel will happily show it to the press. No need for conspiracy theories. It’s there or it’s not. If it’s not, then all attacks based on Israeli intelligence will be suspect.
If there is something there it will likely take days for the military to search it for booby traps. I get it that no evidence Israel shows will be accepted by you.
I think the general point is that if it's not there, the IDF will still fabricate enough "evidence" to cover for its apologists to claim it was worth the wanton slaughter and de facto war crime committed to destroy it. In fact, these clearly inadequate photos already on offer are sufficient for many of the useful idiots out there.
-- "I get it that no evidence Israel shows will be accepted by you"
In warfare, it is an entirely justifiable position to hold that you do not accept any non-independently corroborated evidence provided by either waring party at face value. It is foolish not to hold that position.
Fakery like that, in this OSINT era, would risk being quickly GPS located and exposed.
But now that I said that I realize who's in charge of all of this so it's probably pretty likely exactly that will be tried.
Aren't AK-47's and hand grenades standard equipment in hospitals?
I mean, you definitely need them if you need to indiscriminately spatter your patients against a wall.
I don’t think it’s inconsistent with a hospital treating wounded fighters. It is not the evidence Israel needed to justify the attack.
If you go into a random Starbucks in Texas and search everyone there, you're as likely to turn up more weaponry than this.
It's irrelevant if it's "standard equipment in hospitals." Israel said this hospital contained a big war room from which Hamas was directing its moves, which is what justified (among other things) disconnecting babies from incubators. (It was horrible that babies were beheaded a few weeks ago, and it's horrible that babies were suffocated or starved this week too.) Israel really needs to explain why hospitals - which have been allowed to operate in most wars, including WWI and WWII - cannot be allowed to operate in Gaza.
Didn't those "beheaded baby" stories get retracted? (Not that it means October 7 is anything less then a heinous crime against humanity regardless)
When US intelligence agencies, the White House, and national network newscasts all verified the assertion of the Israelis a Hamas command center was under the Al Shifa Hospital, everyone knew they were lying.
Hopefully, this helps build internal Israeli pressure to slow/pause. That's the only political pressure they will respond to right now.
However, calling this an "attack on a hospital" really gets under my skin. They were seizing control of the hospital and the surrounding area, they weren't going after doctors and patients.
Obviously, it is wildly disruptive, and is actually causing *lots* of harm, but words matter a little bit here.
It should always be assumed that the reports from participants in a conflict are going to be bullshit.
And in this case, the American government counts as a participant in the conflict.
Just to be clear, do you feel the same way about the war in Ukraine?
yes
If they actually find nothing under these hospitals Israeli intelligence is going to have to think they've been penetrated.
Who was promoting these ideas?
You know, you have in Israel a PM who has been widely reported as having supported Hamas in (apparently) a divide & impera strategy ... and you have to ask, is Israeli intelligence penetrated? It's probably been working for them!
This is a conspiracy theory that's going too far.
This all completely upended the diplomatic coup of Netanyahu's career, the rapprochement with the Saudis.
He'd never deliberately do this. And even without that he'd never have done it because of the obvious quagmire. His style is to give other people a quagmire, not himself.
A better theory is the Russians put them up to it.
Netanyahu supporting Hamas for the purpose of sowing chaos and preventing negotiated settlement is fact, not conspiracy. Now, I've never seen anyone suggest he worked to enable or was even aware that Oct 7 was coming. That would be conspiracy theory.
Nobody - not me anyway- said he, Netanyahu, knew anything about an attack. You've jumped up your own strawman there.
But he has been widely reported to have supported Hamas to keep the Palestinian Authority from gaining control in Gaza. At best, they played him (he's an idiot - the useful kind). At worst....
"A better theory is the Russians put them up to it."
I don't think that can yet be dignified with the appellation "theory".
Why not China? Or Turkey? Or Ukraine- they have a bit of an axe to grind with Tel Aviv.
Because Russia has a long history of manipulating the Palestinians and they need a huge distraction from the Ukraine war, a distraction with the added benefit of reducing Western ammo stockpiles that might otherwise have been used against them, while Ukraine has nothing like an axe to grind with Israel, and China and Turkey would never have bothered.
Kevin, you are an amazing journalist, photographer, and graduate of Cal Tech. However, I think your POV is way off here. Israel has only investigated a very small part of Al Shifa Hospital; Israel has already found one of its murdered hostage citizens here, found multiple weapons catches, and tunnels. They have also found evidence that other hostages were here. Even if it isn't command central for Hamas, which is not yet ruled out, certainly there were Israeli citizen victims here; sadly all that they have found so far is the body of one victim. Hamas had plenty of advanced warning that Israel was aware that there were hostages here and moved (or murdered them) prior to any potential rescue. From Haaretz "Body of 65-year-old Israeli woman hostage found near Gaza's Al-Shifa Hospital, IDF announces The body of Judith Weiss from Kibbutz Be'eri was found on Wednesday near the Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City. "
Why are you surprised that a wounded hostage, who succumbed to her injuries, was found at a hospital? Isn't that exactly where you would take a wounded person?
The best part is Biden is publicly backing them to hilt on this.
Or, perhaps the Israelis and the US Intelligence Community are not making this up and maybe folks should give a little time and see what comes up? Or perhaps there are sources and methods that the Israelis do not want to reveal that make it difficult for them to reveal why they came to those conclusions? Is it implausible that Hamas was able to remove most of the evidence?
What is your alternative theory --- the Israelis just decided to attack a hospital without any military purpose out of malice and knowing what kind of crap they were going to get on it, and that the US IC would just go along for the ride?
"...the Israelis just decided to attack a hospital without any military purpose out of malice and knowing what kind of crap they were going to get on it, and that the US IC would just go along for the ride?"
I have no idea what the Israelis motivation was - I hope it was good! - but it's not unheard of for the US to just back "partners" abroad doing stuff and then find out that we backed people we shouldn't have. Our military misadventures from Vietnam onwards are literally littered with stories of the US backing the wrong people.
The alternative story is that Israeli Intelligence screwed up. They must have had a very high degree of confidence that their belief was true. It is implausible that Hamas could remove a large tunnel complex. Unless they find lots of recently used tunnels under the hospital complex this was a huge failure. A defeat.
Bear in mind that the al Shifa hospital was built... by Israel. With "command and control" centers (or rooms resembling them) in the basement. So we already knew they were going to find said rooms in the basement.
Per Wikipedia:
Originally a British Army barracks, the site was transformed into a healthcare facility, the Dar al-Shifa or "house of healing", by the government of Mandatory Palestine in 1946. The hospital was expanded during the Egyptian administration of Gaza, and again under Israeli administration during the 1980s.
Here's a link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital/ar-AA1jZnXA
"maybe folks should give a little time"
Fair - always distrust 1st reports (espec when all the reporters are known liars).
However, given the big talk about the big center, there is no reason to wait very long. Don't the Israelis have the plans for what was built under their watch a few decades ago? They should know right where to start looking. Instead, they look like they are floundering - like the WMD hunt in Iraq.
As I said above, this may be changing. We should keep an open mind but given the credibility probs Israeli forces should try to get some independent forensic observers in on this.
Isreal's motivation, evidenced by everything they are doing quite out in the open, is to make Gaza an unlivable hell that civilians can never return to and ensure there is nothing left to return to anyway. It is a scorched earth campaign.
Yesterday the IDF released video of Israeli soldiers unloading boxes which were laughably labled as "MEDICAL SUPPLIES" in all caps, in English. The label were printed on white paper and on all sides of the box. That's all it said.
With that said, both sides are trying to win the media war. Hamas is willing to retain civilians in the war zone so they can create their photo ops. By helping kill their people, they seem to be winning.
In case any of you were wondering what's going on in the Israeli press right now:
https://jacobin.com/2023/11/united-states-critics-israel-war-gaza-cease-fire-slander-israeli-dissent?fbclid=IwAR2BgYoNnYC3GA3C3mzlQn_t0mEIHlqhjgZE18wtZTNRyP0LPnDGByXMWdY
So... let me see if I have this right: al Shifa is a hospital. In a war zone. They treat people who... are in need of medical treatment. Which may well include members of Hamas who have been wounded, and somehow made it to the hospital. And maybe some of them still had their guns. Which may well account for the 11 guns that the IDF found. I think Kevin is right, and aluminum tubes are right around the corner. Hell, they may even find the George Santos Drug of Choice: Botulinum Toxin, also known as Botox.
Wounded combatants are likely to be brought in by their fellows, who will of course be armed. I believe that the international conventions take account of this; also that armed guards might be present for reasons that should be obvious. Neither of these situations by themselves make a medical facility a legitimate target; it must be actively in use as a military site.
One of the video reports had them showing that guns were hidden behind an MRI machine.
Yeah, that makes sense....
The fog of war is really thick.
IDF will find the command center!!!!
It takes time to dig the tunnels and center.
Have patience.
You are not supposed to have metal objects near an MRI machine but I guess they had other things to worry about.
The hospital has been without power; the MRI isn't functional.
Yeah, I was saying to my wife at dinner "I'm getting that WMD vibe from the hospital raid."
The thing that nobody seems to have noticed is that dropping thousands of bombs didn't, and couldn't actually damage Hamas in any serious way. If Hamas truly has hundreds of deep tunnels and command centers, the bombs were likely to be completely ineffective. The only thing they could achieve was killing civilians and a handful of fighters that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The entire bombing campaign smacks of "We have to do something, this is something, we should do this"