Negotiations between Israel and Hamas are going great:
Netanyahu refused to send a delegation to Cairo for ceasefire talks and spent the weekend trying to ratfuck the deal, and now Israel is complaining it didn't know what was happening with said talks and spinning a story about America stabbing it in the back https://t.co/VAAtTrT0sG
— Gregg Carlstrom (@glcarlstrom) May 7, 2024
This really does seem to be the case. I understand that third party negotiators have to deal with the leaders they have, not the leaders they wish they had. And it's not like Hamas's Yahya Sinwar is any great prize. But for a supposed ally, is there anyone in the world who's more of an asshole and less of a genuine friend than Benjamin Netanyahu?
It’s too bad that apparently it’s in the constitution that the US must assist Israel, no matter what. Otherwise we could start ratcheting back our aid and making its restoration contingent on Israeli leadership not being assholes to us. Oh well what can Biden do?
Otherwise we could start ratcheting back our aid and making its restoration
There shouldn't be any restoration for any reason. Israel's per capita GDP is in the same range as France or Japan. Those two countries pay for their own militaries. Why can't Israel?
If France was surrounded by enemies that wanted to wipe it off the map, kill all the French, and launched rockets at it on a continual basis, I'm sure we would be providing support to France.
So no comment on why Israel can't fund its own military defense then?
Because Israel's economy is not enough to support its defense under the conditions in which it exists.
It is enough.
Also, when did Egpyt and Jodan cease to exist? This lie that Israel is surrounded by enemies needs to be put to rest. But of course that's all Zionists can do: lie and lie and lie and lie...
First, this is not true. Secondly, perhaps Israel should focus on modifying those conditions.
Or maybe Hamas and Hezbollah should focus on not wanting to commit genocide by killing all the Jews. But, yeah, lets blame Israel for defending itself.
As a point of fact, Israel didn't defend itself when it should have, which allowed Hamas to penetrate its borders and slaughter people. Now Israel is slaughtering people, which is not defending itself.
Well stated.
I agree with half of that.
You disagree with what?
That Israel should have defended itself?
Or that killing 35x the number of women and children is defending themselves?
Crissa, I disagree with the premise that "now Israel is slaughtering people, which is not defending itself." Israel is attempting to kill Hamas to hopefully prevent further terrorist attacks like 10/7.
So no comment on why Israel can't fund its own military defense then?
SubservienceLoyalty to Israel cannot fail, comrade. It can only be failed.Maybe European Jews shouldn't have occupied an Asian nation and invented modern terrorism?
Nice anti-Semitism.
Translation: "Now you're just being mean; don't you know that you're not allowed to use facts that I refuse to acknowledge?"
No, that was a classic anti-Semitic trope. Those European Jews were also considered invaders and interlopers in the European countries where they lived, who should have been rightfully put in ghettos and periodically slaughtered.
Oh, perhaps, you can extend this line of logic to yourself and get the fuck out of North America.
You do know that what you wrote didn't dispute any of memyselfandi's facts, right?
Yet another ridiculous tosser.
What facts did they present? Which Asian nation did the European Jews "occupy"?
Are you occupying a country in North America now? I assume that you are in North America.
You don't read very well, do you? Don't drink while you're posting, Comrade.
Well, it's not true and those are not factual statements. "Modern terrorism" was invented in Russia about a century and a half ago. Violent anarchism characterized the first wave of modern terrorism, followed by violent anti-colonialism. That, too, was not invented in Israel or by the Jews. Indian anti-colonialists were practicing direct action before World War I, and ongoing terrorism was one of the factors behind the awful Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
So, yeah, laying this at the feet of the Jews is kind of anti-Semitic. It's also kind of dumb, because there are plenty of legitimate things to criticize Israel for, but when you rely on falsehoods, it makes your entire argument look weak. So there's that.
Noted: It's not anti-semitism for Jews to be against Zionist colonialism.
Again, the depth of ignorance is just breath taking. What "colonialism" are you talking about?
Don't feed the troll. We all know the drill by now, and what happens when you do.
BTW, back in USENET days we used to say DNFTEC (Do Not Feed the Energy Creature).
Which Asian nation did they "occupy", oh the insightful one?
Palestine. 'Occupied Zones' and 'Settlements' are actual things.
There was no such country. Ever. Palestine is a region that was under the control of Ottoman Empire and then the British. Likewise, there was no such country as Israel either. Again, before the British, the US, and the United Nations in its infinite wisdom decided to shove a square peg into a round hole.
Yes, settlements are bad. But the dingbat was talking about European Jews occupying some Asian country.
Translation: "You didn't say your words right". Stick a fork in him, he's done.
He didn't say his words right? He didn't say anything; he typed things. Without thinking. Just like the nonsense that you're spouting, comrade. Ya'll nitwits can't even come up with a good insult.
Chuckle. You keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, you're down in the bilge with Atticus, CLD, Leo, MF, Tango, Traveler, et. al.
There was no such country.
Absolutely, categorically false. Read the text of the Palestinian Mandate.
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp
In particular, note the invocation of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations in the first sentence. The relevant part reads:
"Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone. The wishes of these communities must be a principal consideration in the selection of the Mandatory."
So Palestine was declared to be an independent country that the British were temporarily administering.
So, yes, the Zionists were moving from Europe (the Mizrahi that later came to be a large proportion of the population of Israel didn't arrive in significant numbers until after the creation of Israel) to an Asian country. They did so with the intent of creating a country that excluded about 92% of the 1922 population from full citizenship.
I'm not sure what you would call that other than colonialism.
And spare me the whole bit about the United States being the same. Duh. Of course it is. As for leaving, there has to be some point at which you allow people to stay where they have always lived. A convenient point would be 1949, when that sort of thing became illegal under the 4th Geneva Convention.
That time frame means that the United States remains. So, in fact, does Israel. Despite the fact that it's founding was blatantly illegal and all around a bad idea, it's there, and it's going to stay there. But they must retreat back to the pre-1967 borders. Everything else was illegally seized, and needs to be returned.
Ironically, they're a higher ranked exporter versus importer.
"15th top weapons importer, taking up 2.1% of all imports, according to globally available data from 2019-2023. It also said that Israel was the world's 9th top weapons exporter, responsible for 2.4% of exports"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-arms-embargo-calls-data-shows-99-of-israeli-weapon-imports-are-from-us-germany/
I believe Israel needs far more defense spending per capita than France. Israel's immediate neighbors in Gaza and Lebanon have considerable military strength, much of it provided by Iran, and they do use it to attack Israel.
Gaza has considerable military strength?
How many aircraft do they have?
Tanks?
Artillery?
Anti-missile batteries?
Sure, those are fair qualifications on what kind of threat Hamas can mount. It's asymmetric. But they have demonstrated capability to kill Israelis in Israel, and Israel's operations to remove Hamas from power have been no cakewalk.
Hezbollah, of course, has more dangerous weaponry.
While France and Japan don’t receive direct military aid from the US their alliances with the US provide a level of assurance that allows them to spend less on their militaries and more on other things. Which is its own form of military aid.
Also the UK has a lower per capita GDP than Israel.
Not sure why that matters, as it's a quantity issue as well as a quality issue. Singapore has an enormous GDP, more than 2.5x that of Israel, but if it had hostile and aggressive neighbors, it might still need economic assistance for its self-defense. Likewise, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Finland all have higher per capita GDP than Russia, and Lithuania and Estonia have essentially the same per capita GDP as Israel (Finland's is quite a bit higher). If they were facing hostile neighbors, would you recommend against aiding them based on their relatively high GDP
I'm sure it's in the same section where the "Constitutional Sheriffs" are mentioned.
It's not in the constitution, but it is in treaties and laws and, even more important, deeply embedded in our political culture. It is odd that Netanyahu and his cabinet are so reckless with their most important alliance. Their confidence in Trump winning must be extremely high.
I'm not aware of any treaties (or laws) obligating us to sell Israel weapons no questions asked. And most of the laws permitting sales to Israel have caveats that if obeyed make it illegal for the US to sell weapons to Israel t the moment.
Biden is delaying the shipment of Small Diameter Bombs and JDAMs (glide-and=guidance add-ons to gravity bombs) to Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/07/biden-delays-weapons-israel-rafah/
Bibi is doing everything possible to put TFG back in power. He is trying, every day, to make the Left angry at Biden. Sadly, the Left is easily played.
Well, this is May, early yet. Let's see what the, ahem, 'facts on the ground' are in November.
Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other. And Joe Biden is a jackass. He’s been played. Still gonna vote for him though. One hopes he comes to his senses eventually. You know what’s even more dumb? Calling Saudi Arabia an ally. What are they thinking?
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/02/middleeast/us-saudi-treaty-israel-palestinian-statehood-intl/index.html
"And Joe Biden is a jackass. He’s been played."
Pardon me, but what the hell is the problem here? "US mega-deal would tie together the futures of Saudi Arabia, Israel and Gaza." Why would a deal that brings together major players in the region and presumably brings relief to the Palestinians under siege be anything but a diplomatic coup?
Joseph, I respect your opinions. However, if the reality is that Joe Biden has been and is being played (which I am convinced is true), then how can this "mega-deal" ever succeed? Netanyahu has veto power over it, and he will use it to play for time.
In the meantime, Netanyahu will play Biden into an election defeat in six months time.
"In the meantime, Netanyahu will play Biden into an election defeat in six months time."
Yep. He wants to bare-back Trump in the White House. After Putin gets "firsties".
I admit my crystal ball is rather cloudy and I can't predict exactly how events this year will unfold. But being less than certain at times appears to put me in the minority. I am humbled by the many people with perfect knowledge (and often with perfect moral clarity) who can say how the confounding and fluid situation in the Middle East will be resolved (and who's to blame as well). Even the so-called experts (who ought to know better) can pretend the future is inevitable. I remember watching a few on television who made a very convincing case that the escalating tensions between Israel and Iran had put us on an imminent path to World War III. That was 3 1/2 weeks. I haven't heard news about that since.
All that said, I don't doubt that Netanyahu might see the scenario as you painted it. I'll just note that he doesn't hold all the cards.
Whether there is a deal or no deal right now, it seems a positive development, one that nobody was talking about a few days ago.
Biden cannot force parties to come to an agreement. But he can try, and he's certainly doing that. I'll give him credit for that much.
How he can otherwise end the crisis by fiat, or perhaps by wizardry, which seems to be an article of faith by many, I don't understand.
What effect the Mideast crisis has on the election is something nobody knows. Not Netanyahu, not me, not you. But currently it is not the most important issue. In fact, in a poll just released, the conflict in the Middle East ranks 9th among issues important to college students (9th among college students!).
If there is one candidate who should be worried most about this week's events, it's the guy who keeps falling asleep in a New York courtroom.
That kind of purist thinking would have likely led us into a nuclear conflict instead of the peaceful resolution we had during the Cuban Missile Crisis. That JFK was willing to negotiate privately with Kruschev — and vice versa — instead of the war mongering generals on both sides pulled us back from an horrific war.
For years the Saudis have cooperated with Western democracies to prevent terrorist attacks. We almost never learn of that cooperation for good reason. A podcast I recently listened to described how the Saudis alerted the British that a plane at an airport in the Midlands had a bomb on board embedded in a piece of cargo that was scheduled to go off as it was coming in to land at JFK. It had the potential to cause massive damage and loss of life. We are “allies” of the Saudis when it comes to opposing the Iranians and the terrorists they fund.
Biden knows that Netanyahu desperately wants a deal with the Saudis and the Saudis want a solution to the Palestinian’s untenable situation. That gives Biden a lot more leverage to force Bibi or whomever replaces him to negotiate.
I certainly wouldn't say that the Saudis have been either the most reliable allies or the most successful at preventing terrorist attacks on the United States. The reality is that the Saudis have been on both sides of the terror business as evidenced by clear indications of their support for the attacks on 9/11 and numerous other attacks against this country.
As for Netanyahu, what he desperately wants is to stay in power and stay out of prison. Both of those things require the war against civilians to continue unabated since halting the war in Gaza and the progroms in the West Bank would cost him his extreme-right allies and quite definitely there would soon be an election that he will almost certainly lose. Bibi is evidently prepared to fight to the last Israeli and to sacrifice non-hard rightist American Jews to stay in power. And he wants to stay in power and out of prison more than anything else and certainly lots more than he wants a deal with the Saudis.
Other than there is no chance of Israel and Saudi Arabia agreeing on anything related to Palestinians.
There's no chance of the general population of Saudi Arabia agreeing with the Israelis on anything related to the Palestinians. Very quietly, the rulers of Saudi Arabia agree almost 100% with the Israeli approach.
yes. People are always ignoring the vast gulf between the rulers of these Arab nations and their people
The only thing that will bring them together is money. Sad but true.
Justin, your job at the moment is not to ask yourself what President Biden is thinking. Your job at the moment is to look in the mirror and ask yourself what Justin is thinking, and why.
"When we are no longer able to challenge a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves." Viktor Frankl
I disagree. Our job at the moment is to discern the truth and act accordingly. The truth is that Joe Biden HAS been played, and in fact he seems a willing victim.
How you will act in light of this knowledge is up to you. Mileage may vary.
If you jump to the conclusion that President Biden has been played, and you look for evidence to confirm your conclusion, then you will find it. Likewise, if a child jumps to the conclusion that the dog ate his homework, and he looks for evidence to confirm his conclusion, then he will find it. We are all responsible for examining our own motives, but I assume the child doesn't want to admit to himself that he should have stayed home and done his homework instead of going out to play with his friends.
President Biden is not a victim. Neither is his predecessor, but unlike Biden he sure likes to play the victim. And that's the truth.
But it's so much easier to just declare your assumptions as conclusive. No need for that tedious evidence.
How has he been played?
That seems to be missing from your accusation.
Justin's right about Saudi Arabia, anyway.
Bibi and Hamas deserve each other, not Israelis and Palestinians. This is typical western-centric condescension.
Hamas has changed the deal to handing back dead bodies in return for live prisoners and a ceasefire and you are complaining about Netanyahu?! Seriously?!
This whataboutism when it come to netanyahu makes no sense. Of course hamas is loathsome and untrustworthy. But hamas is not a supposed ally of the United States. We don't send Hamas billions in aid every year. We don't provide Hamas with the most sophisticated military equipment in the world. If you want to side with netanyahu, his right-wing government and their murder of tens of thousands of civilians (including aid workers purposely targeted and killed by the israeli military), go for it. but skip the disingenuous "but what about hamas!?!?".
+1
+1!
1. What Kahner said.
2. If the hostages are already dead (which very well may be the case in a battleground lacking both reliable food supplies and prompt medical care*), the only choice Hamas can logically give Israel is returning dead bodies or returning no bodies. Hamas cannot make dead people alive again for the purpose of exchanging them with Israel.
3. Fuck you MF. Just for being an asshole all the time.
*Not saying at all that the hostages "merely" died from starvation or lack of medical care for whatever injuries they sustained. It's very well possible that Hamas brutally killed them. It's also possible that hostages weren't prioritized for food or medicine in a place where apparently nobody has enough food or medicine, which also is really morally shitty of Hamas. But, again, if a ceasefire is dependent on Israel getting live hostages back and the hostages are already dead... then there logically can never be a ceasefire.
Many of the hostages were kept in the tunnel systems - the same tunnel systems that Israel has been working to eradicate. There are already some bodies of hostages that look like they were killed by Israeli bombing campaigns. The Wall Street Journal had an article about it recently.
Let alone the hostages shot by the Israeli army while waving a white flag and approaching expecting to be rescued.
They died because they were kidnapped by Palestinian terrorists on 10/7.
I would suggest, as long as you are using past events to blame their deaths, that Bibi ignoring warnings from his own Israeli units for a year that Hamas was up to something, killied those "hostages".
Not to mention that Bibi was more than willing to trade their lives in exchnage for slaughtering 30k+ Palestinians. In fact, if he could achieve the goal of wiping out Hamas, he'd probably sacrifice 30k+ Israeli lives. And not lose any sleep over it.
In general I agree that Bibi would cheerfully sacrifice the entire population of Israel and a considerable number of American Jews, too. But, not to beat a dead horse, his goal is clearly not the destruction of Hamas.
Again, the leadership of Hamas largely lives in Qatar and has not been touched by the collective punishment which Israel has imposed mostly on civilians in Gaza. And it's clear that Bibi's intent is to insure that Hamas continues to dominate in Gaza for basically the same reasons why he promoted their rise to power there in the first place.Bibi has no desire to destroy Hamas.
This. He needs a bogeyman to point to and not an actual functioning representative of the Palestinians. He's never wanted them unified, so he always played the factions against each other.
If a man grabs a family hostage, and then the police decides to shoot them all dead to kill the hostage taker, you can bet the world would hold the police responsible for their deaths.
Any death directly or indirectly caused by the manner in which Israel decided to respond is 100% on the hands of Israel. Unless you want to argue Israel is a powerless puppet incapable of deciding how to act?
Actually this is almost certainly not true. In the case you describe blame is usually attributed more to the hostage takers than to the police. Whether that should be the case depends on the circumstances involved. And it really should depend on how careful or careless the police were. But we seldom blame the police in such circumstances.
I thought that by saying "decides to shoot them all dead" it was clear I meant that they shot the hostages with complete disregard for their safety.
I can't think of a single example where the authorities have acted with less care and lack of restrain than Israel without them later getting punished for such wanton disregard for the lives of the hostages they were supposedly trying to get back.
The war didn't start on Oct 7th 2023.
Truly God has granted my prayer an made my opponents ridiculous.
Hamas didn't change the deal. I keep seeing this lie, and that's what it is. They accepted the very same deal that Israel did last week.
That truth that is being distorted to produce that lie is that some of the language in the deal is ambiguous. That was deliberate by the authors, in an attempt to produce something that both sides could sign on to.
This is not uncommon in negotiations. The hope is that, once both sides are onboard and implementing the first, more concrete steps*, they become sufficiently invested in the process that they work out the ambiguities later. Sometimes this works. Sometimes it doesn't. But it's worth a try.
So, Hamas didn't change the deal. They just made it clear that they interpreted the ambiguity differently than the Israelis did. Which is fine. Both interpretations are semantically plausible, and there is no reason whatsoever to privilege Israel's reading just because they went first.
But it doesn't surprise me that you're lying about this.
*I say "more concrete" rather than "concrete," because of the limitations of human language. No agreement ever made is 100% clear, because ambiguities are inherent in how we communicate. This is why we have courts to interpret signed contracts.
"They accepted the very same deal that Israel did last week." The claim that israel previously accepted the deal was a lie fed to you to make hamas look bad. Israel refused to even accept the deal they themselves drew up.
I never said that the Israelis were sincere about it, but they did accept that deal last week.
Aside from the already-excellent responses, readers of this jackass should also keep in mind Israel, not Hamas, sets Israel's military goals.
And Israel set itself incompatible goals: the destruction of Hamas and hostage return. You cannot competently pursue both.
Of course Bibi's real goal is maintain power, because he's going to jail as soon as that slips. So his goal is ongoing war, stringing along the families of the hostages and making sure his extreme right flank doesn't abandon him.
And everyone in the US is still ignoring settler violence on the West Bank...
In conclusion, human motivation is a rich tapestry. And Americans are still arrogant illiterates.
Well said, especially about Bibi's real goal. He reminds me of donnie running fundraisers from the within the courthouse.
Was hostage return ever a goal? Not that I've seen. Of course, the general Israeli population wanted that, but I don't think the government ever stated that as a goal.
They shot three of the captives directly. Who knows how many more the IDF has killed.
"And Israel set itself incompatible goals: the destruction of Hamas and hostage return. You cannot competently pursue both."
+1
Not everyone
While no longer sending formal letters to the White House to be delayed by irradiation, or using the WH website to communicate to Biden & Harris using a tiny text box only to receive a pro format response, I have decided to keep writing my response to Netanyahu's corruption & cruelty using every appeal to his ambassador's conscience, as well as the law, without much hope of even shaming anyone who is supportive & complicit to resign. Kind of wish that all of the students would blanket Michael Herzog with civil messages, since I had been thinking of Kent State before I read the same fear of violence against college protesters from someone who knew a KS victim.
Some of us who have friends affected personally have long faulted both Netanyahu administrations in particular for the treatment of Palestinians in not only the West Bank & Gaza, but also in East Jerusalem/al Quds.
Changed?
So they're supposed to not have a ceasefire because the IDF blew up the captives?
Isreal's stated goal is to destroy Hamas. Hamas would rather not be destroyed.
So do you negotiate on how quickly you destroy Hamas?
If Hamas will release living hostages in return for a stay of execution, why not? The Israelis got back over 30 living hostages from the first round of negotiation.
Hamas is loathsome, but not stupid. A delayed execution is not a very compelling offer...
On the Israeli front, it seems that Netanyahu has decided that the hostages are dead, or not the few that remain not worth the bargaining cost. Either way, the goal of destroying Hamas is far more important than hostages or remains of hostages.
That's my take as well. If Netanyahu has to choose between bringing hostages home -- if they're still alive at all -- and destroying Hamas, he's going to choose to destroy Hamas and consequences be damned.
It looks more like inflicting collective punishment, which will and has strengthened Hamas. Before Oct 7th, some Palestinians in Gaza were risking life and limb to peacefully protest against Hamas. Hamas could have addressed the needs of the people in Gaza, or....attack Israel to provoke an over the top response. Israel obliged.
Netanyahu is going to pick whichever option drags this out longer and prevents the nutjobs in his government from resigning and forcing new elections.
And choosing to destroy Hamas over the lives of the hostages would be the correct call in that if you COULD destroy Hamas, it would save far more lives and promote the general welfare far more than releasing the hostages would.
I wish the Israelis could do a better job of destroying Hamas. But between the tunnels and hiding among the civilian population, they are tough to root out.
It’s in the despicable Netanyahu’s interest for Hamas to continue holding hostages — it restrains a public discussion of how poorly prepared his government was for the attacks of October 7.
Netanyahu never wanted the hostages back.
I would remind you that the overwhelming majority of Hamas's leadership is living in luxury with their families in Qatar. Israel knows where the people who really are important in planning and carrying out the attacks of 10/7 can be found and has simply chosen to maintain the status quo because it suits Israel's larger interest in depopulating Gaza and carrying out more pogroms in the West Bank and extending more settlements there in order to ensure that no Palestinian state can be brought into existence.
So it seems to me that Israel's stated goal is not their real goal. If they wanted Hamas destroyed, they and the United States would've given Qatar an ultimatum to hand over the Hamas leadership for trial and execution. But that's not on the table and never has been—which I think tells you what Israel's real objectives are (in addition to imposing collective punishment on Palestinian civilians).
You're ignoring that Qatar would never agree to turn over Hamas. The farthest they would go would be to expel them. And they can always wait for Trump to get back in power and get the benefits of the billion dollar bribe they paid.
You’re probably correct in your assessment of Qatar’s response. But if that would be Qatar’s response, then it makes it utterly impossible for Israel to destroy Hamas. And it suggests that really isn’t their objective.
Bibi’s made it clear that he wants Hamas to continue to be the power in Gaza for basically the same reasons why he facilitated their rise in the first place. Basically, Bibi and his far right allies have altered the situation so that there’s no possibility of a Palestinian state coming into existence and there’s no possibility that there will be anyone other than Hamas capable of running Gaza.
At this point, the chief obstacle to any long term peace is Bibi and Israel. Biden needs to either alter that reality or drastically disengage from Israel.
It's Netanyahu's Forever War, because once it ends the investigations start, and his negligence and ignoring intelligence warnings will be on the record.
Exactly!
Question I have asked but never get an answer.
Has our Ally Israel ever put boots on the ground in our various military adventures around the world?
Is the US an ally of Israel and is Israel an ally of the US?
I don't know the answer, but in some cases the allies we were fighting for wanted no part of a coalition that included Israeli troops.
"Has our Ally Israel ever put boots on the ground in our various military adventures around the world?"
Directly no to your question, but that response is likely misleading.
For example,
1. In Gulf War I, Israel wanted to join in and attack Iraq, but the US stopped Israel from being involved.
2. Some of Israel's military attacks (for example assaults on Iraq and Syria nuclear programs) were likely with US support and knowledge. Either way, there events furthered US goals without risking American soldiers.
3. I have read that Israel is the key source for human intelligence, for the US, in the middle east. Israel information supported US special forces in Syria, etc
Back in the day, Pat Lang had some comments about Israel sharing intelligence.
https://turcopolier.com/about/
"Has our Ally Israel ever put boots on the ground in our various military adventures " No. Many of the nations that have would never participate if Israel also participated.
Just a reminder: Bibi can stop bombing civilians at any time. Biden can legally stop military aid to Israel at any time, by US law.
The IDF continues to bomb civilians and interfere with the delivery of aid because that's Israel's policy right now. The reason the US continues to support these actions by supplying military aid is because that's US policy right now.
Hamas is stuck in holes with little except the hostages (or what remains of them) and a few weapons. If they pull another fast one, the IDF can respond when they do. Iran's clearly not going to enter the fray with anything significant right now.
Biden is delaying weapons shipments to Israel: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/05/07/biden-delays-weapons-israel-rafah/
Benjamin Netanyahu is no ally of the United States, but he is also no ally of Israel.
President Biden didn't put Netanyahu or Hamas in power, but he is responsible for acting in the interest of the United States, world order is in the interest of the United States, and world order is not a zero sum game.
It's simple. Act based on the assumption this is all a zero sum game and you will get a less-than-zero sum game, which is to say that we are guaranteed to lose, or act based on the assumption this is a non-zero sum game, and then it gets complicated, which is something I don't have to tell President Biden, but at least we've given ourselves a chance, which is also something I don't have to tell President Biden.
Yes, well stated. The U.S. is trying to put both Palestinians and Israelis on a course that could lead (long-term) to permanent peace; that would definitely be better than zero-sum.
But there can be no permanent peace as long as Bibi needs the war to continue so that he can stay in power and out of prison. A just and lasting peace (if that's even possible now) would result in Israeli election which Bibi would surely lose. Which would probably be followed by his conviction and imprisonment. Bibi is prepared to sacrifice anything and everyone to stay in power.
So it's basically a binary choice for Biden: Cut off all aid to Israel as long as Bibi is running things or continue to support him and pay the price for doing so. Given Bibi's motivations and intransigence, I don't see a middle ground.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or whether the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena ..." -Theodore Roosevelt
All we can do looking in from the outside is judge a leader's motives and competence. Motive is the easier and much more important part. A POTUS is serving the whole country or just those who are supporters. It's harder and takes more time to judge competence, but competence is less important. It's much better to do the right thing wrong than to do the wrong thing right.
Good news: President Biden is doing the right things right.
Warning: Citizen Donald does the wrong things wrong.
In my opinion, President Biden is not doing the right things. And whatever it is that he's trying to accomplish, he's not doing anything right. He has basically enrolled the United States as a junior partner in Israel's collective punishment of the Palestinian people and in the pogroms/expansion of settlements conducted by both official and unofficial elements of the Israeli government and, finally, in the preservation of Hamas as the rulers of Gaza. And in doing so, he has gained nothing for Israel or the United States.
Pres. Biden has jeopardized his chances for reelection (perhaps fatally) through his collaboration with Bibi yet he's gained nothing for anyone except for Bibi and his extreme rightwing allies. The public record is clear and I see no reason why we should not judge President Biden harshly. If for no other reason than the undeniable reality that his collaboration with Bibi makes it significantly more likely that Trump will return to the White House and turn this country into an authoritarian hellscape. So, basically, a lose-lose-lose proposition.
I agree with everything you say above.
I think the only explanation is that he has done all those (reprehensible IMO) things out of a singularly political calculation that he needs to appease the pro-Israel lobby. How he rationalizes being on the genocidal side of this historic moment is anyone's guess.
That is not the only explanation. The rationale behind Biden's approach is that he has more ability to influence Israeli policy if he remains close to them, and taking the actions his critics on the left demand would leave him without any influence over Israel.
Before you sneer too much, there is evidence that this has had some effect. Left to their own devices, the Israelis likely would never have allowed significant humanitarian aid into Gaza, and they definitely wouldn't have expanded it after the killing of the WCK workers. Israel never would have allowed the construction of the artificial pier that's in the works. The administration's efforts delayed the attack on Rafah, giving more time for negotiations.
Keep in mind that Biden got to see up close what happens when you try to cast Israel aside. The Obama administration chose to excoriate a number of Israel's actions. The result was that they accomplished absolutely nothing. Biden wanted to try a new approach.
Is what he's getting enough to justify this? That's a judgment call. I can see an argument either way.
I follow your argument, here is a question: Had Biden taken a harder line just how would Israel stop us building the pier?
They would simply blow it up. My money is still on that outcome, absent a significant change in the current dynamics.
Joe makes me livid to continue to send money to Isreal and Bibi. I am a die heart Dem but this action has really turned me off as it likely has a lot of folks. Why do we support this idiocy???
Well, for one thing the last Israel aid package was contained in the Ukraine bill. Opposing the Israel aid component would have meant bupkis for Ukraine, and perhaps an early victory for Putin. For another, Biden's campaign people can read polls, and they believe—I think almost certainly correctly—that a sharp break with Israel on the part of this White House is a net vote loser.
Because Biden surrounds himself with people who agree with you. Trump will surround himself who will advocate for genocide and the extermination of the palestinians.
Netanyahu feels a peace deal is not in his political interest, and continued fighting is not in Joe Biden's political interest. So, keeping the war going both helps Bibi in the medium term (he's harder to topple while the war's raging) and in the somewhat longer term (it raises the odds of a Trump victory).
In short, as far as Bibi is concerned, Joe Biden can go fuck himself. And the tough part is, there's little Biden can do about it unless he's willing to throw political calculus out the window.
Events, dear boy, events.
When a national leader repeatedly pokes another nation's leader in the eye with a sharp stick, you would naturally presume it's done to protect that first country's interest. With Netanyahu, though, it's very clear now that he's doing it to protect Netanyahu's personal interests. He's practicing 18th-century statecraft at best. He's done it to every D president he's dealt with, too.
But why he'd expect trump to be better for him personally is beyond me. There are only two people in this world whose interests trump wants to advance-- his own, and Ivanka's. He would sell out Netanyahu in a New York minute if he saw a scintilla of advantage for himself or Ivanka, and by extension maybe Jared. And we've all seen how both trump and Jared just love them some Saudis.
Netanyahu used to be at least situationally smart, and in those days I used to think Olmert was the outright dumbest political figure in Israel. These days the comparison isn't so bad for Olmert. Personal desperation dulls the wits, for sure.
Trump cares about his daughter? Interesting thought.
He cares about her this much:
As far as I can see, she's the only person in the entire world he wouldn't sell out and/or desert in a heartbeat. Can't say that about Junior, Eric, or the unnamed one, nor about Melania; I haven't seen anyone say anything about Baron. And Ivanka seems to be the only person he'll let talk back to him (though from what I remember even she has to be careful just how she phrases it). I've seen people say she has him twisted around her little finger. So yeah, even setting aside the cringe-inducing thing about wanting to date her, she's somehow a special class of one for him.
He has done this for months.
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-794223
He has been a thorn in the side of Democratic presidents for years
why is this surprising now?
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Benjamin Netanyahu thinks the United States are bootlickers, whose only value is to support Israel's policies and extend their power in the Middle East.
The US is the tail and Israel the dog in this relationship.
I think there’s a large element of truth in what you say. What I would add is that it’s essential not to overlook Bibi’s calculus of values. What comes first, second, and third with him is his own survival—which, at the moment, means that Bibi’s got to keep the war going because the moment that it ends there’s going to be immense pressure for new elections (which Bibi will surely lose) and for him to be convicted and sent to prison. So that’s what is uppermost in Bibi’s mind.
The second factor that I think is coloring Bibi’s assessment of the situation is the damage that he is doing to Biden’s prospects for reelection. I’m sure that Bibi would prefer for Trump to return to the White House and for the Republicans to sweep the congressional elections. So from Bibi’s point of view, his intransigence has no downside for him; perhaps it will be disastrous for Israel but that’s no really a concern for him.
All fair points and yes, as is often the case Bibi's personal interest would likely channel his political desires.
We're probably going to need UN peacekeepers in there, as would anyone trust Israel as occupying power to responsibly keep to their obligations as such, after what we've witnessed? They've literally destroyed Gaza and massacred tens of thousands of women, children and other civilians/non-combatants, not to mention broke records for killings of journalists.
On the flip side, get the peacekeepers in and we can ensure the return of everyone (left) who was removed from Gaza during the course of this wanton destruction and slaughter, and then real peace talks can commence to legitimize Palestinians as citizens, whether that's in a new Palestine state or included with Israel (with equal rights and opportunity of course, because a country that discriminates by race, heritage, religion or skin color is not part of the "free world").
"We're probably going to need UN peacekeepers in there
There is zero chance of that happening. No nation is stupid enough to volunteer it's troops for that suicide mission. (And both Hamas and Israel are equally likely to murder them.)
I disagree, and it would not be in Hamas or Islamic Jihad interest to bomb UN peacekeepers in this scenario.
I don't think Hamas defines their self-interest in the same way that you do.
We knew this about Bibi when Obama was in office.
This blog post is an insult to all intelligent human beings. Posting an inflammatory tweet (which confirms one’s own priors) and then affirming that the tweet “really does seem to be what happened” is exactly what Donald Trump does all of the damn time. And everyone here would mock him for it.
When it comes to Israel/Gaza, Kevin continues to embarrass himself over and over again. I previously thought he was an example of a smart Liberal, but I now find him to be a borderline demagogue with a group of commenters who make MAGA look thoughtful and polite.
And suggesting that the ceasefire problems from this last weekend lie at the feet of Israel isn’t just one-sided: it’s either maliciously misleading or unforgivably stupid.
From Voice of America today:
“The Israeli move came a day after Hamas made a surprise announcement that it accepted an Egyptian cease-fire proposal that Israel had previously accepted.
“But on Tuesday, Israeli officials said that the terms Hamas accepted are not the same as those in the original Egyptian proposal, and that the changes that Hamas is demanding make it impossible for Israel to agree.”
Morons like Kevin are so eager to condemn Israel that they easily get played by Hamas.
All Hamas has to do is “agree” to a deal they essentially made up, and which Israel never agreed to, and the naive Leftys of the world make fools of themselves - AGAIN - by falling for the tricks of a terrorist organization.
The tweet posted by Kevin gives away the game: it’s a tell. He’s now so far gone that he’s openly trafficking in propaganda - exactly the kind of thing he usually tries to counter with his charts and graphs. The Left has lost its f*#king mind.
From the Axios piece linked in the tweet:
"The (U.S) official also said the Biden administration sees Hamas' response as a counter-proposal and not as a new proposal."
"counter-proposal" and "deal they essentially made up" seem kinda different.
Are these proposals and counter-proposals public? Not to my knowledge. I think I trust the U.S. official over an intemperate blog commenter.
@Tomtom502:
Hamas claims to have accepted a ceasefire deal,
But the deal that Hamas claims to have accepted apparently never existed.
If the state department is in fact deciding to spin what Hamas did as a counteroffer, I assume they are doing so as an attempt to keep negotiations moving forward.
But in asserting that they had in fact accepted the deal on the table when they had not actually done so, Hamas lied. How shocking!
And the fact that so many on the Left fall all over themselves to condemn Israel while covering for Hamas is grotesque.
It is - exactly - the kind of behavior the Left condemns when Trump fawns over dictators.
Do you have sources?
Here are two NYT gift links:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-ceasefire-proposal.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qU0.RZru.VItEkhCHXdew&smid=url-share
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/06/world/middleeast/burns-cease-fire-hamas.html?unlocked_article_code=1.qU0.I-IY.Vv4E2vg_D3M8&smid=url-share
They tell a story that Hamas made only small changes. "Hamas said on Monday that it had accepted the terms of a cease-fire proposed by Arab mediators, and U.S. officials said it had minor wording changes from a proposal that Israel and the United States had recently presented to the group."
I don't know the relevance of lefties falling over themselves. KD has had it with Netanyahu, so have I. He propped up Hamas for years!
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
If you lay down with a snake don't act shocked when it bites you.
Voice of America? Interesting. What does Pravda sy?
I wouldn't overestimate any domestic electoral impact this situation in Palestine and with Israel has, especially considering the situation is about to go from extremely bad to even worse (including famine and starvation).
Biden has an opportunity to be decisive and stop this evil that is occurring, and which we are arguably complicit with by continuing to arm Israel throughout, let's do the right thing before it's not "arguable" anymore, and before an even deeper atrocity/calamity befalls the Palestinian people the world left behind and trusted to Israel's care.
It's bad enough we have US senators threatening the ICC with sanctions, similar to the way the Mafia would threatens judges, this nonsense has to stop and stopping the arms flow and recognizing Israel is not capable of carrying out it's responsibilities as occupier is where you start.
At some point, the world will look back on the tragedy of Palestine and ask "How was this allowed to happen? Wasn't anybody paying attention?"
It's been clear for months that Netanyahu has no intention of agreeing to a ceasefire that might lead to an end of his campaign to kill and destroy until all signs of resistance have been crushed. I kind of understand why Biden has been trying to find a way to avoid getting totally offside with one or the other sides in the conflict domestically, but it won't be sustainable much longer.
Administration officials from the president down have been infuriatingly inept in their messaging, giving entirely unnecessary daily commentary on how negotiations for a ceasefire are going, with Blinken the worst offender. They've managed to achieve the worst of two possible outcomes: creating the impression they're trying to control the situation while demonstrating their impotence in practice.
Sad to see Biden dying on this hill to support a far right agenda, I expected more from him. Israel in no danger and neither are American Jews, and to exaggerate and demogogue that point at the expense of criticizing American-style political protest? Shameful. This time is little different than the students protesting against racism, Vietnam, or South Africa, Joe is just on the wrong side this time, because of some romantic historical notions he has rather than the hard-scrabble pragmatism that I expect from him.
Israel has slaughtered tens of thousands of women and children and destroyed Gaza because of a terrorist attack that killed 30x less people, by a faction they maneuvered to keep in power, and this while they are lawfully responsible to protect the occupied people's dignity as an occupying power, and even worse doing so with our free arms welfare.
Israel jumped the shark, and we're very close to this turning into Biden's Iraq, when his legacy could have been much more than being peer to W Bush. How many tens of thousands more have to die before realizing Israel is on a revenge eye-for-an-eye binge they will likely never recover their reputation for (and dramatically risking our own in the process, all while accepting our welfare and flipping us the bird).
Enough!
It's high time we stopped referring to Israel as (a) our ally and (b) the Middle East's only democracy. It is neither.
Another point of view on the negotiations
https://cdn.simplecast.com/audio/95ea4d0c-35c7-4ac7-a410-7d9f02ee3ded/episodes/977673b9-15ec-4ceb-b314-b6e402c16c43/audio/760cc4a1-bf7f-406b-85b6-040380f54d1f/default_tc.mp3?aid=rss_feed&feed=5gzMlOG1