Atrios is deeply angry about Joe Biden rejecting an order from the International Criminal Court for Israel to halt their offensive in Rafah:
I wish some good faith people (many people are not) would UPDATE THEIR PRIORS, as the kids say, a bit about Biden and recognize that they spent months running interference for him on this while his critics, who they attacked, were completely correct about how Biden's every fake criticism of Israel was indeed fake!
....I don't like what is happening and I also don't like being lied to by people who can barely pretend that their lies even have to be convincing. Bring back Ari Fleischer if that's the governing style you are embracing! He was at least good at this shit!
I continue to be puzzled not by the difference of opinion, but by the level of outrage. If you were already opposed to Israel, then of course everything Biden has done is appalling. But if, like Biden himself, you have long supported Israel and hated Hamas, then things look a whole lot more complicated.
Biden supports the offensive in Gaza and always has. Naturally that means he also gives Israel every benefit of the doubt, as we all do for people and causes we support. Nor is it just Biden. Democrats recently voted all but unanimously to transfer more lethal aid to Israel—the vote was 176-37 in the House and 46-2 in the Senate.
Biden deeply supports Israel, deeply hates Hamas, and has increasing doubts about how Israel is fighting the war. He's pushed Netanyahu on this, but there's a clear limit to how far he's willing to push. There's nothing fake about any of this, and Biden has been pretty clear about his position from the start. He might be wrong, but he's not lying about anything.
biden deeply supports israel, but netanyahu deeply supports trump and other assorted american fascists
so biden's support get him bupkis
That’s a very good point. Also, it’s difficult for me to understand why Biden’s let Netanyahu dick him around so much and for so long. It was obvious that Netanyahu’s calculus of values (personal wellbeing over everything else) meant that he would never be receptive to good advice offered by Biden and that he’d always support Trump and the hard right in Israeli politics.
So the problem I have with Biden’s approach is he must’ve know from the first minute of the first day that Netanyahu and the Israeli extreme right intended to impose collective punishment on the Palestinians and also to dispossess them of as much land in Gaza and the West Bank as possible. But rather than stand up for basic principles of human rights, Biden acquiesced to the extreme rights program and essentially made the United States complicit in horrific violations of international law and human rights.
Needless to say, I’m voting for Biden in November but there’s still a lot of innocent blood on his hands. And he’s evidently not got a plan for extricating himself from Bibi’s cold embrace. Honestly, at this point, I think he should speak directly to the Israeli people and explain that either Bibi goes or Israel is on its own.
And there you go.
The anti-Semites will still vote for Hidden in November because he is a better choice than Trump for them. But if Biden abandons Israel then he loses votes to Trump. His strategy is obvious.
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And up for a day so far.
I don’t think there’s actually a huge number of actual Nazis or other right wingers who are going to be voting for Biden. I believe that Tump has their votes in his pocket. But I think there’s a lot of softish support for Israel generally among my parents generation.
But, realistically, whether one agrees or disagrees with Biden, two things seem undeniably true. First, that Trump will be infinitely worse on this issue than Biden. Kushner, for example, has already expressed support for dispossession of Palestiniens from their « valuable beachfront property » and numerous other Republicans have proposed using nuclear weapons on Gaza. Trump himself has no compassion for the civilian victims of this collective punishment; apparently he just wants it to be over quickly.
Second, and most importantly for Americans, a vote for Hitler is a very big mistake. And, make no mistake, Donald Trump is basically a less mentally stable version of Adolf Hitler. Voting for Hitler is always a mistake
It even seems highly likely to me that part of Netanyahu's political calculation is that his uncompromising ruthlessness towards Gaza will drive a wedge through Biden's support and increase the odds of Trump becoming president again, which would give him even more free reign.
Is it possible that among Netanyahu's motivations for his actions are not personal well-being above everything else or calculations regarding the US presidential elections but instead that he sincerely believes that at this point that Hamas must be destroyed to the extent possible? And in general that Israel cannot survive a Palestinian state on the West Bank because sooner or later they will try to kill Israelis and to destroy Israel?
You do not have to agree with his reasoning about this to think that he is not conducting this operation primarily for cynical reasons.
I think Netanyahu’s long history in Israeli politics makes it abundantly clear that his philosophy can be summed up as “me first, nobody else second “. It’s also worth remembering that the Hamas fighters who committed atrocities were essentially Netanyahu’s creatures. More than anyone else, it was he who organized their funding by Qatar and their rise to power in Gaza. But for Netanyahu, it’s entirely possible that there would be no Hamas in existence to carry out the atrocities.
And let’s also not forget how Netanyahu orchestrated the murder of his political rival.
Netanyahu’s motives seem perfectly clear. He is prepared to sacrifice his country and countless innocent civilians to keep power and stay out of prison. It’s that simple.
Netanyahu must be amazed at how well his political strategy (of getting Trump elected) is actually working. Despite atrocity after atrocity in killing human beings (yes, Palestinians are human beings), Biden keeps on coming back to support Benjamin and his genocidal policies.
To me, Biden's behavior seems similar to that of the proverbial 'deer in the headlights'. He keeps on coming back with a glazed expression to support the man who is trying to destroy him politically, and succeeding at it.
Maybe Biden IS getting too old....
Biden has, however, told Israel to not move into Rafah several times.
The US just doesn't support the ICC for stupid reasons, honestly.
netanyahu will roll into rafah ten days before the US elections just to give the amfasc party a nice little bump at the polls
Kevin has his courts confused. The order to stop the invasion came from the International Court of Justice, not the ICC. A Biden-appointed judge on the ICJ endorsed the order.
So the against argument is that the gaza offensive is just a notch above simply bombing civilians, yet on npr this morning there was a report that there are three BATTALIONS of Hamas fighters in this town.
I had to look up how big a battalion was, but even allowing for the fog of war if let’s say it’s only one battalion isn’t it naive for anyone to think Israel is just going to stop? Especially since unless I am missing it I don’t see a Hamas offer for peace on some terms.
The ability of humans to kill each other if they think there are a thousand soldiers ready to kill them is pretty much unlimited.
It is just so awful over there. I don’t know what Hamas is thinking. Do they think another 10k in civilian losses is just good PR? Israel will eventually stop but the stupidity of Hamas is unbelievable. There must be some IRA / Sein Fein dudes around to tell them how to do a proper insurrection that gets results other than martyrdom.
Yeah, I don't think Hamas has battalions. Terrorist/guerrilla organizations don't have battalions.
They do seem to have a “conventional“ military structure: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qassam_Brigades
However it isn't at all clear how many actual trained fighters there are in a Hamas battalion. In any event, blowing up buildings in the hope that it contains a significant number of fighters isn't a very efficient way to destroy them and killing civilians is a very good recruitment tool for Hamas.
Martyrdom seems to be getting them more international support than they had before.
"yet on npr this morning there was a report that there are three BATTALIONS of Hamas fighters in this town"
A "report" which of course came from Israel, which is another way of saying propaganda. I'm sure even Hamas does not know exactly how many of them are left. Hamas fighters have shown up again in areas previously cleared, so maybe there are very few left in Rafah.
But again, at this point "completely eliminate Hamas" is mostly the justification, not the purpose.
I am not sure if you actually follow the situation, but Hamas has agreed to a cease fire with a release of hostages. They have not promised to accept endless occupation without violence, but that is not peace, so that is not really a rejection of peace. Unless by peace you mean peace for Israel and endless occupation for Palestnians.
You may have noticed, but probably not, that the Irish are one of the countries that is vocally horrifed by Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. I suspect that if Sinn Fein had advice for Hamas it would be to figure out how to get the US to be less racist against Palestinians, because the US would never have put up with the UK treating Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland the way that Israel treats the Palestinians.
If Britain was not bothered by genocide there would not have been a way to do a proper reduction without martyrdom.
If what you say is correct, Biden was a fool to say the IDF shouldn't enter Rafah. No matter how you look at it, he has not handled this ongoing conflict well.
I disagree. The problem is that Netanyahu has placed staying in power and out of prison above everything else. That means he can’t afford to lose the support of the extreme right and it also means that he can’t end the war because that would result in new elections (which he would surely lose and probably end up in prison, too).
As I see it, the fundamental problem is that while Biden’s advise would be good for Israel, it would be catastrophic for Netanyahu because he would be driven from office and likely would be convicted for corruption and imprisoned.
What Biden actually said was that the US wanted to see an Israeli plan to protect the estimated one million civilians in Rafah (residents + refugees from other parts of Gaza) before the IDF entered the city. The plan should have included safe-passage evacuation routes, transportation to a designated safe zone, shelter, food and access to medical care there. The Israelis never produced a plan; instead, they dropped leaflets ordering evacuation to Al-Mawasi, a largely agricultural area unsuited to housing and feeding hundreds of thousands of fleeing civilians. Furthermore, the IDF and Israeli civilians have hindered and consequently substantially reduced humanitarian aid shipments into Gaza. The IDF and the government of Israel have failed to comply with international law requiring the protection of non-combatants and civilian infrastructure. Therefore, the US government opposes an attack on Rafah.
Israel’s tactics throughout have relied on heavy use of air strikes and massive destruction of buildings and infrastructure. This has minimized IDF casualties at the cost of much greater suffering and death among non-combatants (as compared to the ratio of civilian to military casualties for U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, where the US relied relatively more on infantry). Hamas may have expected more close combat with the IDF; one ought not assume that they knew what tactics the IDF would employ.
"one ought not assume that they knew what tactics the IDF would employ."
Hamas is a theocratic terrorist organization, of course we can figure out their motivation: The attack was designed to provoke Israel into a war that would end up as a propaganda victory for Hamas even as they lost the actual war. And Netanyahu played right along. This is the worst of it: Hamas sacrificed their own civilians in order to gain a propaganda victory. And Israel (i.e. Netanyahu) let themselves be goaded to execute as Hamas had planned. The tactical details don't matter.
I think it’s arguable that Hamas expected that Hezbollah and perhaps Iran would be drawn into open conflict with Israel, saving Hamas from defeat. Such a broader conflict would likely have brought much stronger incentives, and pressure from the U.S., Europe, and others for a negotiated settlement.
Can you give an example of a resistance movement that set out to achieve a mere propaganda victory?
I don’t really know what Hamas is thinking--I’m not from the Middle East and am no expert on the region. However, Israel has a few options:
1) Negotiate peace with the Palestinians. This would require accepting a two state solution or a one state solution, neither of which are acceptable to the current Israeli government, or (probably) to the Israeli electorate.
2) Remain in a perpetual state of war. This seems doable for Israel, but the current government doesn’t like this option either.
With the above two options off the table, that leaves only imaginary options:
3) Pretend the war is over. Israel had an early version of the Hamas attack plan for October 7, which didn’t specify the date of the attack but did describe the tactics, so Hamas didn’t have the advantage of tactical surprise. Hamas’s intentions, at a very general level, were spelled out in the 2017 Hamas charter, so Israel knew those too. So Israel could have repelled the October 7 attack, but only by maintaining sufficient military force on the Gaza border on a permanent basis.
4) Eliminate Hamas. I’m no military expert, but I think this option is also a fantasy. (Also, eliminating Hamas does Israel no good if Hamas is simply replaced by a similar organization.)
I describe option 3 as an imaginary option, but it’s imaginary only because Hamas decided to make it so. Similarly, option 4 is foreclosed because Hamas won’t agree to voluntarily disband. So what Hamas is accomplishing is to force Israel to choose between options 1 and 2. I doubt that this helps the Palestinians at all because my guess is that Israel chooses option 2, but maybe Hamas thinks there’s a chance Israel will choose option 1.
4) The military experts I have read agree that eliminating Hamas by military action without sowing the seeds of future insurgencies is a fantasy. Instead of seeking to annihilate Hamas, Israel should have been undermining its support. Israel has been punishing Fatah/the PA, the more moderate Palestinian organizations, by expanding settlements on the West Bank and harassing its resident Palestinians, and rewarding the extremist Hamas by allowing them more control in Gaza. They should have been doing the opposite, but that would have required Likud to negotiate steps toward Palestinian sovereignty, which they refused to do.
“Biden deeply supports Israel, deeply hates Hamas, and has increasing doubts about how Israel is fighting the war. He's pushed Netanyahu on this, but there's a clear limit to how far he's willing to push. There's nothing fake about any of this, and Biden has been pretty clear about his position from the start. He might be wrong”
I don’t personally think that Biden is wrong. Kevin’s description strikes me as a broadly accurate account of a perspective that I basically agree with.
Arguably it is the consensus among the normie liberal section of the Democratic party and probably a number of the less rabid Republicans.
It's not apparent what use "pushing" is if it doesn't in fact cause the pushee to change their behaviour. Netanyahu has said from the beginning he's going to keep the IDF offensive going even if Israel has to fight alone, until every last member of Hamas is dead. There is no evidence anything Biden has said or done has modified this plan for never-ending slaughter.
@kenalovell:
“It's not apparent what use ‘pushing’ is if it doesn't in fact cause the pushee to change their behaviour.”
Yup. If this were the basic complaint of the campus protestors (as opposed to chants that sound way too pro-Hamas), I’d be a lot more sympathetic towards them.
And I get that it’s frustrating. It’s an intractable situation that may not have a good solution.
As best I’m aware, the best we can hope for is the collapse of the Netanyahu governing coalition. I’m relatively certain that’s what Biden is hoping for; but,
Of course, there’s no guarantee that anything significantly better will take its place.
So I think it’s going to be one step at a time in the hope of an eventual breakthrough.
Unfortunately what the perspective leaves out is that Israel has kept millions of Palestinians stateless for decades while changing facts on the ground to make the possibility of peace impossible. After keeping 2 million Gazans on a limited calorie count while periodically slaughtering a thousand or so Gazans (what they call mowing the grass) they have responded to the recent attack from Hamas by slaughtering more than 30,000 mostly civilians while creating a famine and serious dehydration risk for 2 million people.
If you leave that out you give a mistaken account of what is being discussed. After all the claim that someone supports Israel, which leaves out the behavior by Israel that therefore gets supported by the claim "he supports Israel".
Unfortunately this comes off a bit like "I support the Phillies" because they are more hometown team. And really this at core is what is going on here. Biden, like most Americans associates more with the Jews in Israel than the Palestinians and so the massive abuse and death for the Palestinians doesn't figure in much when one is rooting for the home team.
This is what tango calls the "normie" position. But, of course, the normie position is depressingly racist at its heart. It is the view that Israel killing Palestinians is a shame, but putting pressure on Israel to stop is a tragedy.
Atrios' outrage is for people who want to pretend that Biden ISN'T supporting Israel no matter what. He does disagree with Biden's support for genocide and disregard for the global rule based order - but we've come to expect that from US leaders. He's pissed at all the liars who want to pretend that Biden has some sort of red line, or plan, or any regard for the Palestinian welfare instead of blind, unflinching support for Isreal. Those who breathlessly quote "The US is concerned...", "Blinken says they're looking into accusations of torture..." and other such foolishness. Those folks are just talking propaganda.
^^^ This. When the administration threatens to sanction the ICC just for considering whether Netanyahu has committed war crimes, and dismisses an order from the International Court of Justice with which its own appointed judicial member concurred, it's hard to believe there is any "red line" which could cause it to suspend support for the Netanyahu government.
Biden lied the other day when he said that he had seen evidence that a woman was doused with gasoline with her child and set on fire by Hamas. He lied when he said he saw "pictures of terrorists beheading children" and had them "confirmed". Those clear lies may have been the product of longstanding opinions or bias but they still were clear lies. And Atrios is right that every "criticism" of Israel turned out to be fake.
One can be biased without resorting to outright lies. Biden's position has been clear all right. He'll repeat any Israeli tall tale. There was a brave Palestinian teenager who lost her legs in an air strike, spoke of how she hoped to become a nurse anyway and was decapitated by a tank shell through the hospital window. Would that child have been beheaded if the President of the USA hadn't lied about beheaded children? No-one can say but it certainly helped Israel do what it wanted.
Well, we can't know what Biden actually "saw." The Israeli propaganda mill is pretty quick and capable of producing deepfakes at will. So we don't know if he was "lying."
But we can be pretty sure that he was wrong.
Why do you think he was wrong?
If you know your history of Israeli propaganda, you are not doomed to repeatedly fall for it.
Hamas has plenty of real crimes to answer for, but time after time these early unconfirmed reports of outrageously cruel and brutal acts
evaporate on cursory investigation and turn out to have originated from Israel's very efficient PR apparatus.
That is the case for the Oct 7 accusations of "beheadings" and *systematic* use of rape as a weapon. If Biden is now referencing something more recent, only a fool would assume it is true this time.
Atrios has been one of our leading Green Lantern-ites on this subject, seeming to think Biden has a magic switch he can flip that will instantly stop Netanyahu and the IDF in their tracks and snap them back across the borders. It's gotten tiresome enough that I stopped reading his posts on this topic. (If Biden had that switch, btw, you'd think he would have flipped it long since, given that Netanyahu has so consistently and so publicly been kicking him in the teeth, as lower-case points out, but Atrios seems totally committed to the powers of the lamp.)
Biden has been completely consistent, as far as I can see, since at least his trip to Tel Aviv. Half that statement commiserated with Israel and pointed out that no country in the world would or could refrain from responding against the perpetrators. The other half was a warning against going into Gaza in a blind rage to commit an orgy of destruction, and Biden was roundly criticized for daring even to raise any caution at all. I don't doubt that his public statements along that line have been as mild as milk compared to what he's been telling Netanyahu privately, too. For a whole lot of reasons, Biden didn't want to see the IDF do to Gaza what they're doing. But there just ain't no secret switch.
This comment could make sense in the abstract, but in this case Atrios is objecting to Biden protecting Israel from a criminal court, at the cost of weakening the court when it says similar things in a case that we care about like Ukraine. (When I say we care about I mean we care whether the abusive country is violating international law. We do with Russia, we don't with Israel).
It is true that Biden cannot simply order Israel to stop slaughtering Palestinian civilians and expect them to stop. But we certainly can stop providing weapons with which Israel slaughters Palestinians. And we can stop protecting Israel in international institutions from the criticism that comes from their slaughtering civilians.
STFU Kevin. That's not at all what Atrois said and you know it.
This is what he said (quoting the Guardian):
"The US and the UK will reject the international court of justice order directing Israel to end its offensive on Rafah after slowly blurring their red lines that once stated that they could not support a military offensive in Rafah."
Atrois criticism is specifically about Rafah and Biden's lies/hypocricy in relation to Israel's millitary operatioon there.
Meh.
I think it is very broadly true that Genocide Joe is completely in the bag for Israel; Phaedrus' and ruralhobo's comments are spot on.
But he sees that many in his party don't like this, so he does some meaningless kabuki to signify that he is holding Israel accountable for their actions; I strongly suspect that when the delivery of more offensive weapons was briefly delayed, a message was also sent to Netanyahu that it was only done for theatrics, and really the "delay" was just the normal time it would take to get the weapons loaded and shipped.
And as emh1969 notes, Biden is apparently rejecting an ICJ ruling that is pretty much exactly what he "demanded" of Israel earlier.
You may think Joe is “in the bag” for Israel, but if Trump was president we would be offering Israel free nukes to finish off the war.
Both things can be -- and basically are -- true.
Does Biden hate Hamas? Did you ask him?
Does Nancy Pelosi hate Donald Trump? Someone asked her, and she said "I don't hate anybody. I was raised with a heart full of love and always pray for the president." I'd be very surprised if you don't get the same answer from Joe Biden about Hamas. There's an enormous difference between hating people and hating what they do.
There’s also an enormous difference between Hamas and Trump.
There is also a responisibilty to put your personal feelings aside and behave like an adult. Who cares how much he "hates" Hamas? He is the head of the most powerful economic and military force in the world and his personal feelings should count for squat when put in a the balance with international law and basic humanity.
The "all but unanimous" Democratic support for the resolution you cite was only in the Senate - you know, the geriatric chamber. Jon Ossoff is the only Senate Dem who isn't 50 or older. I don't know how he voted; just citing demographics here.
Meanwhile in the House, there are more than 60 Democratics under the age of 50. That's 1/3 of the caucus. Granted, only 17% of the Democratic votes were against, but that's nowhere near "all but unanimous."
Once again, young folk show they're on the right side of history. So much of the political friction we experience is simply because oldass motherfuckers cling to power until they die. We need them to stop pulling a collective Feinstein and stop strangling the rest of us. I understand the threat that Republicans pose is greater, but that just makes the sin of clinging to power all the more egregious. They need to be shepherding in a new generation of liberals instead of stifling them. Fucking "Me Generation."
End rant.
In this case, the youngsters prove they are on the wrong side of history. Its incredible that you and you youngster congressmen are so mixed up you support the side of evil.
You mean the side that supports terrorism? Which side is that, exactly?
Is it the side that allows illegal settlers to drive people from their land, and arrests those people when they try to defend it?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2023-07-08/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/settlers-invade-private-land-the-palestinian-owners-are-arrested-another-outpost-is-born/00000189-340d-d145-a1e9-377fde310000
Is it the side that watched hundreds of settlers riot in Hawara, burning hundreds of vehicles and dozens of homes and businesses, and, more than a year later, hasn't charged anyone over it?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2023-03-04/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/shock-rage-and-despair-in-hawara-in-wake-of-settler-pogrom/00000186-a298-d6e6-a3af-fbdc8e1b0000
Is it the side that tolerates another riot in a town?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-02/ty-article-magazine/.premium/this-wasnt-an-uncontrolled-mob-of-settlers-it-was-a-well-orchestrated-assault/0000018f-2e31-d8fb-a1df-af77d3770000
Is it the side in which the National Security Minister's response to gangs attacking suspected aid trucks, beating up the drivers, and destroying the cargo is to ask why the police are trying to protect the trucks?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-18/ty-article/settlers-attack-trucker-thought-to-be-delivering-aid-to-gaza-and-soldiers-who-helped-him/0000018f-8687-d443-adef-9fcf68460000
Is it the side that has condoned pogroms that have driven out the inhabitants of at least 18 villages in the West Bank since 10/7?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2024-05-18/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/18-west-bank-shepherding-communities-have-been-recently-erased-this-one-might-be-next/0000018f-83c5-d9d6-a38f-87ff376b0000
Israel's supporters are either breathtakingly dishonest, or deeply in denial, when they claim to have a principled objection to terrorism. The Israeli government has no such thing. They are happy to encourage terrorism, so long as it is performed by the right people, and targets the right people.
Let's not forget all the terroism committed by Jewish groups prior to the founding Israel, including the Deir Yassin massacre (which was quite similar to what happened on 10/7). That massacre is one of the principal events that kicked off the Nakba. Not only is it never mentioned, in 1980 Israel began awarding special ribbons to members of the group that committed the massacre "for military service towards the establishment of the State of Israel". And one of the former members of the group - Yitzhak Shamir - served as Prime Minister twice. Oh, and the terrorist groups were also folded into the IDF:
Thank you.
The "settlers", for the most part, are out of control. Sadly, without the "settlers", Bibi would be out of power.
How do you know that all the women and children are truly EVIL?
Or are they acceptable losses? What does that make you?
What a twisted, sad little person.
Yeah just like they were with Vietnam and with Iraq, those young people are always wrong until history proves them right. Even in Israel they have to know that in 100 years if there is still an Israel to tell this story they will tell it the way that the US talks about slavery or our dealing with the Indians, that is as moral atrocities that fortunately we got away with.
Get lost, troll. Cohort replacement is coming for you.
Israel's been committing evil acts for decades, and on far greater scale than any Palestinians have been doing during the same time frame.
I mentioned this last week but the Silent Generation and the Boomers cling to power like Charlton Heston and his guns.
One other point. The bill Kevin is referring to also included $9 billion in humanitarian aid for Palestine, something I have no doubt Kevin knows. It's certainly possible that some of the Dems held their nose when they voted for the bill. But they did it to get aid to Palestine.
Kevin is being breathtakingly dishonest in this post.
"Atrios." Is that still a thing?
I guarantee that kids do not say "Update your priors", in fact I would say that the only people who use those words are Extremely Online middle-aged pundit types.
Two other points:
Ari Fleischer was not, in fact, "good at this", he was always transparently a shithead whose only job was to go through the motions.
And the bigger point, which Mr. Drum seems to not quite get, is that nobody likes Hamas (or the Iranian government), but also there doesn't seem to be any military reason to have killed 40,000 civilians or whatever the number is now. Congrats, you got revenge for the October attacks and destroyed their networks but you aren't going to destroy the organization seeing as how their headquarters is about a thousand miles to the east, so clearly the operations at this point are purely punitive.
They can certainly kill more hamas
fighters Ave get back more hostages alive or dead. That seems a good thing.
Atrios lives in a world where no one should ever compromise their Very High Principles. Not even in the slightest degree.
It's a very pretty world, and it's nice to be reminded that ideals exist, but it's the world of a five-year-old. It's not a world in which the most dangerous animal ever to have walked the earth has to find compromises with other, equally dangerous animals, so that we all don't just kill each other by default.
Most species have close cousins. Humans once did, but do not now. We, as a species, are particularly good at eliminating creatures which "look like us, but are not us."
Compromise is the thing that moderates our tendency to wage wars of extermination. Atrios should grow up a bit.
compromising our principles moderates or tendancy to wage wars of extermination?
Our ancient cousins are extinct so we should send weapons to Israel who is killing innocent civilians because we must compromise our principles to avoid waging wars of extermination?
This sounds like a bad ChatGPT response. Delete, start over.
Just give up. Biden is done. Jackass. He Sold his Catholic soul to the Jewish devil. ????. Which, as it turns out, is probably better than selling it to the Islamic one! ????
Atrios has been tediously repetitive, and often posts such Delphic observations they need an interpreter. But his point on this topic has been clear: Biden and his team have basically been lying about there being limits to their willingness to support Netanyahu. The International Court of Justice (not the ICC, as Kevin wrote) - including, notably, Biden nominee Judge Sarah H. Cleveland - has ordered Israel not to do what Biden said he would never agree Israel should do. Yet Biden demurs, creating obvious doubt about his sincerity.
Drum is right that Biden has been mostly clear that he would prefer that Israel not continue to abuse 2 million people in Gaza, but not so much that he will put any serious pressure on Israel to stop doing it. People are angry with Biden because this is a disgusting position to take as 2 million people face starvation and dehydration. Anyone who finds that hard to understand has a moral failing.
If you want to understand this consider what you think of people who would support Donald Trump despite his history of abusing women, lying repeatedly, open racism, lack of concern for national security, etc. But keep in mind that Trump has never purposely starved a population of 2 million people while slaughtering 10s of thousands of civilians. So from a moral perspective support for Donald Trump is not as bad as support for Israel while it abuses the Palestinians.
There is this depressing habit of treating the death of 10's of thousands of civilians and the imposed famine on more than 2 million people as a shame rather than a tragedy. At some level that may be better than cheering on the slaughter, but it is still pretty disgusting.
I believe it's called "the Palestinian Exception."
Kevin - you must remember that nothing short of Biden bitch-slapping Bibi in public will do...
So your thinking is that telling Netanyahu not to invade Rafah while supplying him with the weapons with which to do so and rejecting international calls not to do so is one step away from bitch-slapping Bibi?
I know the people trying to soft pedal the slaughter of 10's of thousands of Palestinian civilians are in a difficult position. But even so do the attempts to make caring about the slaughter of civilians seem unreasonable have to get that stupid?
My personal memory of this conflict goes back to the 1967 war. Since then Israelis and Palestinians have both regularly committed atrocities against the other; I have very little sympathy for either side.
However, Biden SHOULDN'T have dissed the ICJ like that.
Okay, let's start thinking out of the box. Offer "Bee-bee" a free flight to Florida, USA, protection from the United Nations and the Israeli justice system (such as it is), and a lifetime membership at Mar A La Go. To get this, he must never return to Israel, must renounce his citizenship, and not run for office there ever again.
Then yet another round of new elections in Israel. And hope for somebody better.
The origin of this "Biden works for peace" myth is probably liberal Biden supporters who can't reconcile "Compassionate Joe" with the atrocities he's supporting in Gaza. Every day I see some Biden supporter argue that Biden is working behind the scenes to end the war or is "actively trying to stop" Netanyahu, etc. This plainly isn't true; Biden is personally committed to ensuring Netanyahu has whatever he needs to do whatever he wants. Liberals ought to stop lying to themselves and voters about Biden's monstrous record on Israel/Palestine.