Atrios says this about Joe Biden's efforts to pass immigration legislation:
If you concede the issues that the other side have made their own are important, you have conceded that the other side is, in fact, correct, and that what they say is important is, in fact, important.
Immigration is especially fraught as there is no "solution" that will make the people who are mad about it stop being mad, or making the people who are screeching about it stop screeching about it. There is no rationality to anti-immigration rage, no wonky policy solution to address the discontent.
This is all true. At the same time, isn't it true about nearly everything? And true of our side as well? No plausible compromise will stop us from screeching about climate change, abortion, taxing the rich, universal health care, or a bunch of other issues we liberals feel strongly about.
Atrios is pleading for Biden to be more consistently liberal, but this is also a counsel of despair. Literally nothing will ever happen if both sides simply refuse to pass anything because they know the other side will never be satisfied.
It's true that the other side will never be satisfied! But that's just the nature of politics. You have to keep soldiering on regardless.
"No plausible compromise will stop us from screeching about climate change, abortion, taxing the rich, universal health care, or a bunch of other issues we liberals feel strongly about."
What are you talking about? Nobody would be screeching about climate change if the projected change was 0.0 degrees C.
That isn't plausible because the other side doesn't even acknowledge the problem exists, but that means there is no compromise on offer.
The compromise is as much fantasy as the ideal solution. In that situation it's better to stake out a real position that the other side has to at least address. Taking up a compromise position that won't be accepted does nothing.
Do you think conservatives would be screeching about immigration if they got immigration down to zero? Of course no legislation that is passed will get either immigration down to zero or climate change projections down to zero. So those possibilities aren't really relevant here.
Do you mean if we got illegal immigration down to zero? Is that a bad goal?
It's not so much "good or bad" as it is "achievable or not achievable". Zero illegal immigration is not achievable.
Make $300 each hour. How Can Someone Without Work Experience Apply Online for a Job? It’s time to move on to the next phase, which is to apply for and be hired for the job. These are our finest recommendations for showcasing yourself as a candidate and getting vx11 that distant job.
Check It....................... https://easybusiness77.blogspot.com/
Nobody will ever be "satisfied" by anything. No maga-extremist, no campus-based lib, nobody. A political solution, by definition, leaves everyone somewhat dissatisfied, but solves at least some of the problems.
This is a reason folks hate "politics" so much. Sure, Biden has forgiven lots and lots of student loans, billions of bucks worth ... but NOT ALL! And college IS STILL NOT FREE! et cetera.
The reactionary right response is even more intolerant and viscious, and can involve firearms. And that's not normal for this country.
The US was founded on responses involving firearms. For the US, that's perfectly normal.
No, it wasn't. The United States was founded on the concept of rule of law and rule by representatives selected by its citizens. The second amendment was forced in by the slave-owning south, which wanted to be able to putdown rebellions of their recalcitrant "property" and track down any "items" who managed to escape.
"No plausible compromise will stop us from screeching about climate change, abortion, taxing the rich, universal health care, or a bunch of other issues we liberals feel strongly about."
Huh? Sure there are. Addressing climate change with policies commensurate with the risk and well known cost, increasing taxes on the rich to a level that inhibits the massively growing wealth gap and providing universal health care in line with what is standard in other wealthy countries. Progressives want reasonable solutions to serious problems and don't at all line up with right-wingers. This is really the worst bothside-dism i recall seeing from you kevin.
Seems to me that Democrats are willing to compromise on immigration, while Republicans not only refuse to compromise, but are unwilling to pass any immigration bill even if all their demands are met and they don't need to compromise at all. Am I wrong about the state of negotiations? Are both sides being unreasonable here, or only one?
Keith B - the GOP wants to win elections, versus solve problems.
Politically, for several reasons, NOT solving our immigration challenge is better for the GOP in 2024.
I understand that. But Mr. Drum's premise is that both sides are refusing to compromise because they don't find any middle ground acceptable, not because it's a ruse to gain an electoral advantage.
The appropriate response from the Democrats, in my opinion, is to keep on screeching that the other side doesn't want to and isn't capable of fixing the border issue, and that only by electing Democrats will the problem be solved. But I don't claim to know anything about winning elections.
Just disagree with Kevin here. I believe most Democrats would accept compromise solutions to the things he mentions here. But didn’t the Affordable Care Act prove Republicans will accept zero compromise? Doesn't the current situation with abortion, where women face death because Doctors won’t abort a non-viable fetus, prove they won’t budge? And I, for one, would be ecstatic if the Republicans acknowledged climate change and said they wanted to work with Democrats to find solution that don’t hurt the economy.
But I I won’t budge on my opinion that they’re a bunch of conspiracy addled lunatics in their quest to find political meaning in a romance between a pop music celebrity and a football player.
I don't know how you can compare what Republicans do on immigration to what Democrats do on issues like climate change and abortion.
If Democrats screech about climate change, it's because it's the equivalent of an asteroid speeding toward earth and we really need to do something about it. Or else. Meanwhile, Democrats do act to prevent catastrophe every chance they get. Not enough yet, but they're sincerely trying.
Abortion rights were protected for 50 years until an unprecedented overturning of precedent by a radical right-wing. Yes, liberals are upset, and they're doing everything possible to restore those rights where they can. Look at the states.
After Reagan, Republicans have done nothing about immigration but whine. They don't want to solve the problem, even when they have Congress and the White House. It's an issue they think works for them. Why solve it? They didn't even give Trump funding for his friggin' wall. The GOP doesn't want to fix anything they think is broken. All they know how to do is break things and blame Democrats. And of course, give tax cuts to the rich.
In their spare time, they write stories for the NY Times. This is the #1 story on the Times website right now.
How the Border Crisis Shattered Biden’s Immigration Hopes
An examination of President Biden’s record reveals how he failed to overcome a surge in new arrivals and political obstacles in both parties.
For christsakes.
For the record, I think the Democrats are giving in way too much to Republican demands on the "compromise" legislation on immigration. The only reason any negotiation on immigration was going on was because the GOP demanded something in exchange for funding for Ukraine, and only because Biden needs something for Ukraine now was he willing to let immigration be part of the deal. Now we know that immigration (and Ukraine aid) are dead, because Trump and the GOP has decided they want to make the border problem the center of their 2024 campaign. (Plus, a problem at the border will give Trump cover to destroy everything we love about the country if he gets the chance.)
I think Biden has ceded too much, but in any case he needs to make it glaringly clear than any problem on the border is the GOP's fault. (Not easy with the media we have today, which only knows one party to blame for anything.)
I'm hoping Ukraine gets aid somehow to keep Russia at bay until a Dem Congress and president can help again. If the GOP is successful in taking power, however, it's not just the end of Ukraine. It's the end of America and the free world.
WTH? The Dems compromise. All. The. Time. Meanwhile the never-satisfied other side goes after their own for working out compromises.
“ No plausible compromise will stop us from screeching about climate change, abortion, taxing the rich, universal health care, or a bunch of other issues we liberals feel strongly about”
Dude, what!?
Climate change: make a serious effort to hit UN benchmarks
Abortion: Roe v Wade was working. Which side made up some total bullsheet to toss it?
Universal health care: Obamacare WAS the compromise; remember how that went?
What other issues? Because you’re wrong on every other one you cited.
Yes.
Atrios seems to be making the argument that the attempt to reach a compromise with Republicans on immigration is bad politics because while Biden seems to think he can disarm the anger of immigration, the fact that none of it is rational means that all that Biden will accomplish is focusing more attention on a losing issue. That could be true even if it was a bipartisan phenomenon. It is probably not a great idea for Republicans to push for a climate change compromise because that is a losing issue for Republicans and the focus on it does not work to their advantage.
This can be contrasted with how the abortion issue used to be conceived of, and I think still if by Drum (maybe correctly) where the important thing was to make the other side look like the extremists. That is the right would talk about partial birth abortion and the left would talk about cases of rape and incest. (Recently abortion just looks like a losing issue for Republicans).
Biden seems to be hoping that if Republicans turn down a deal that Democrats are offering (in exchange for money for Ukraine and Israel) but don't actually like, then Biden can paint Republicans as the ones who don't care about immigration. It is probably true that Republicans care more about immigration as an issue than as a phenomenon, but it is doubtful that the politics of this will work for the reason that Atrios gives.
Lon Becker
"Biden seems to be hoping that if Republicans turn down a deal that Democrats are offering (in exchange for money for Ukraine and Israel) but don't actually like, then Biden can paint Republicans as the ones who don't care about immigration."
While the aforementioned might be the hope, I think, a more realistic goal must be to refocus American's attention on democracy and abortion. It seems every time the Democrats talk about immigration, Trump's popularity increases.
The constant drumbeat from the right had been all about inflation and the economy and the (OMG!) terrible recession (which never happened). As soon as people started waking up to the reality (hey, the economy is pretty damned good!), all the attention moved to the border. The GOP wages an information war against the administration, and media just goes along with it.
"here is no "solution" that will make the people who are mad about it stop being mad, or making the people who are screeching about it stop screeching about it."
In broad terms, I disagree. If something REALLY draconian were to be passed and implemented (round up and physically remove millions of undocumented from the country, large detention camps at the border and some other Hunger Games like options) the GOP would say 'they forced Biden into a reasonable solution.'
Note, the aforementioned would not work, would destroy the US economy etc....
Thanks for the idea of "Hunger Games like option" made me laugh. Somehow Vince McMahon would be involved I think.. Thanks!
Around 1910 or so there were all kinds of conspiracy theories about secret Japanese armies training in the Mexican desert poised to invade the US and deflower our virginity.
If everyone in Mexico and Japan had spontaneously died it wouldn't have done a thing to change the xenophobia.
It's simply the permanent state of reaction of all social conservatives against the existence of anyone they become aware of who might be some different kind of person.
This is why nothing about Iran will ever do except total commitment to total war.
Rule Number 1: Today's Republicans don't argue or negotiate in good faith.
Why are we back to pretending like Republicans ever argue or govern in good faith?
"No plausible compromise will stop us from screeching about climate change, abortion, taxing the rich, universal health care, or a bunch of other issues we liberals feel strongly about."
Just going to join the dozen other commenters who are befuddled by this assertion and both-sides-ism. It's just flatly untrue and is a rather embarrassing thing to say.
"You have to keep soldiering on regardless."
No, you don't. It's time to explore other options. They are going to impeach the secretary over this issue so why would they give in?
What other options?
I don't think Kevin is addressing Atrios' point.
The point is not the standard 'nobody is happy with compromise' pablum.
The point is that the struggle, or the fight is the point. There is no legislative solution of any kind, no matter how extreme. If you are looking for a fight, solutions dont matter at all.
This is not at all similar to Democratic approaches to climate change or healthcare or inequality where the point is to address and improve the issue at hand.
Note that, just a few years back, Republicans (well, the Republican Supreme Court) finally solved the problem of women being permitted to get abortions! It had been a great money maker and vote getter for well over half a century at that point; afterwards, the issue became a complete loser for the Rs and a vote getter, turnout driver, and money maker for the Democrats.
The Republican Party has learned its lesson: never solve problems. Never contribute to solving problems. Just keep whining and blustering about problems, blaming the problems on The Democrat Party, and the failure to find a solution on Democrats. It's the gift that keeps on giving!
Will the Democrats and a few mainsteam news outlets exposing the scam make a difference? Who knows? But Republicans are prepared to ride that jalopy into the ditch, and they hope, take the country with it. Because it's obviously the Democrats' fault!
The truth of the matter is that our immigration system is broken and we need to increase the capacity to handle the current load, if that means passing a bill that most Dems don’t want to peel some GOP votes, so be it. Such bill would still be better than the anarchy we have now. How many more dead does one want to add to the ten of thousands who have died because of the lawlessness that governs the frontier? I am all for a liberal immigration regime but the current mess is simply unsustainable for all sides.
Tens of thousands of people have died because of lawlessness on the frontier?
Bro, it isn't 1844 anymore.
Heck yeah! We need more deals on accepting basic humanity like the Three-Fifths Compromise! Look how well that one worked out! Ahhhh sweet progress.
It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that the republican party is paying coyotes to bring people down. This is like abortion: it's a platform they'll never give up and will keep griping about until they get into office.
Atrios's preferred policy is open borders and no deportations. Should Democrats hold out for this? No, there are lots of swing voters - and normal Democratic voters - who are alarmed about a real surge in immigration, but probably don't want the ridiculous Trump proposals either. The extreme pro-immigration position would lose the 2024 election. Biden has to show determination to slow down illegal immigration. If Republicans don't accept reasonable proposals - which is likely - then the blame has to be put on them.
At this point the objective of Biden and Democratic politicians is to win elections, not to change the attitudes of hard-core Republicans. Does Atrios know better than Biden how to win elections? Do you?
For what it's worth, Democrats are willing to make deals quite often (to the chagrin of a lot of supporters, include Atrios.)
The question is, what is our side getting from a deal? It seems like a lot of Democrats want a deal just so Republicans can't say we're soft on immigration, which is dumb.
Personally, I would be willing to tighten down border security IF we also tightened employment with e-Verify AND we increased our immigration quotas to reflect what our real level of immigration (documented and undocumented) has been.
I also think asylum rules probably need to be revised, but I'm not going to let people's opportunities for asylum get reduced without something in return. More immigrant protections, more staff to process requests in a timely fashion, not allowing a Republican to oversee DHS. Make me an offer.
Let's step back and consider how useless this last GOP-led House has been. Historically, they've shattered the record of least bills passed.
It's not an issue of both sides simply refuse to pass anything with regards to immigration, but that "Republicans simply refuse to pass anything, period." Immigration is just one example of where Republicans have determined that not passing any bills means they can campaign on those issues from the first day of the session all the way through the general election.
This session was interference so that they might gain a majority in both chambers and take back the executive office. They had no other goal.
I don't give a fuck about my fellow Spanish speakers compared to Ukraine. That's why you try for the deal.
Also immigration actually is a problem because it has sucked up all the resources in blue cities.
Also, sometimes you have to compromise to get elected--especially on this issue. Biden has done a formidable job of getting things through with a minuscule majority in both House and Senate. If he can manage this with the GOP majority House, it will be a miracle and it will really help with reelection. I am of the opinion that the addition of immigration judges and other personnel is worth some of the negatives.
It's looked to me from the beginning that making aid to Ukraine conditional on "fixing the border" was nothing but a cute way for Republicans to end aid to Ukraine without having to take a vote ending aid to Ukraine. Biden and Senate Democrats had the choice of refusing to talk about the border, or going through the motions of negotiating a package of changes knowing House Republicans would never endorse them.
I think Democrats made the politically savvy decision. Now House Republicans have effectively killed any consideration of immigration laws for the rest of the year, Schumer should force a vote on a clean bill authorising aid to Ukraine. Let Republicans squirm and bloviate about why they won't pass it.