In tonight's vice-presidential debate, J.D. Vance obviously made a calculated decision tonight to tone the rhetoric way down and introduce himself to America as a friendly, reasonable guy. On some important issues he backed way down. Deport 25 million illegal immigrants? How about a million criminals and then we'll think about the rest. Ban abortion? Um, er, we really need to re-earn the trust of the American public on that. Haitian immigrants eating pet cats? What I really meant is that they're overwhelming our schools.
Tim Walz decided to stay Minnesota nice and let Vance get away with his newfound warmth. Walz was also pretty nervous, especially at first. But he got better as the debate progressed, and obviously had the advantage of not having to defend a nutbag.
I thought Walz did a good job of emphasizing "stability" when both candidates were asked about a preemptive strike on Iran. Vance mainly punted on the question, which allowed Walz to hold and keep the high ground.
Vance scored on the economy thanks to Harris/Walz's continued decision—maybe correct—not to even fight back on inflation. I assume that they believe anything they say would sound dismissive and defensive, so they're better off just taking their lumps and moving on. I dunno. I understand the logic but I hate to see them vacate the field entirely.
Walz talked too fast and tried to stuff in too much, much of it too arcane. Vance was better, but he was also more salesman-y. Vance may have won on style points, but I'd guess only barely.
At the end, Vance resolutely refused to admit that Trump lost the 2020 election. No surprise there. What else could he do? But I think Walz missed a chance to really drill home how bad January 6 was, which has been sanitized for so long that a lot of people don't remember what Trump was really trying to accomplish and how he tried to do it.
Vance instead pivoted to censorship, which probably didn't help him outside the MAGA base. It's an obscure issue for most people. Still, Walz meandered around in his response without forthrightly saying "Kamala Harris has never supported censorship of anything in her life," or words to that effect. But no harm done.
In the end, I'd guess Vance did a bit better job, but it was basically a tie. It will have no impact at all on the race.
I don’t want to pick a winner or loser. I think the debates should be effective at revealing the positions of the candidates. In this regard I think Tim Walz did quite a bit better because, in spite of his style points, he revealed more of himself and his policies. Vance spoke more smoothly but had little to say.
Some of what Vance had to say was astounding. Trump “saved Obamacare?” OMG. At the end Vance could not bring himself to say that Trump lost in 2020. In 2021 we had a peaceful transfer of power? Dude, you are here because Trump tried to kill Mike Pence! Regarding school violence, Vance couldn’t say that guns needed some controls. He said that schools needed better windows and door locks. Sheesh.
Vance was way too smooth regarding protection for pre-existing conditions. He said that existing law protects that. Yes, Obamacare! LOL
Vance lied so shamelessly. He said multiple times that Biden and Harris weren't doing anything to bring clean energy manufacturing to America when the Inflation Reduction Act did just that!
For me, this debate reminds me of watching a sport game, long after the outcome is pretty clear. As I see it, there are really only two significant questions about the debate:
1. Did many undecided voters watch the debate, or will many view clips from the debate?
2. Were the differences significant enough to move (including not to vote etc) undecided voters?
Vance won. Not a big win, but he won. He won by lying through his teeth, but facts don't matter. Granted, it was low bar for him--he didn't creep anyone out--so that's a win too.
Trump may* have won a (very narrow) tactical victory, but Harris won a strategic victory. She’s winning, at least if the polls are accurate, and Trump needs a major shake up of the race. He didn’t get that.
* I doubt Vance’s insurrectionist denialism went down well with the electorate.
The insurrection should have disqualified Trump--he should have been completely rejected during the primaries. Yet the race is almost tied.
I'd love to see two commercials:
1. Trump going on about how he saw it on TV. The the narrator says: "Do you believe everything you see on TV. Should the next president?"
2. Vance whining about being fact checked. "Do you want someone who'll be honest with you, or do you want someone who whines about fact-checking when caught lying?" And I didn't even say the ad should show him morphing into a toddler throwing a tantrum.
this sounds like ross douthat's assessment that jimmy bowman's performance was the best gop debate outing of the 21st century, just outrating mitt romney's first debate in 2012.
it's all lies, but they were smoothly told.
It was a debate between two adults with different styles and different goals.
But Walz missed a lot of opportunities to squeeze JD for political points on several issues.
Vance lied his way through the debate. How can he be declared a winner after doing that?
This is a weird debate. Vance came off better than I expected, but the things he said and didn't say. Jeezus.
"Trump saved Obamacare", takes a special kind of lying.
"Trump participated in a peaceful transfer of power", when he basically told Biden to Fuck off when he left office. Oh, and 1/6.
"Illegal immigrants drive up the cost of housing". So, some guy who walked a 100 miles to illegally cross the border to get a job picking Strawberries, also had $50K+ to get a bank loan for a new house? Craziest thing in the debate.
yeah i'm still wondering how that works, immigrants buying so many homes that it drives up the price. seriously. which banks are giving them loans?
Rental prices are sensitive to vacancy rates, so it's not like there is no connection. Keeping the market tight benefits landlords tremendously.
At the end of the day this is a problem that has little to do with immigrants, legal or illegal. Just the number of people of whatever status who need a place to live.
Springfield was losing population, and now it's a growing town. The problems mentioned were because of growth. Vance should have been asked it he'd prefer Springfield just kept losing population.
the woke dei banks.
ask kevin's sensible republican lunching mate for the list.
Must be where Vance, the ultimate DEI VP, got his living money while he was a DEI student at Yale.
>> How about a million criminals and then we'll think about the rest.<<
Where does this million criminal illegal immigrate number come from? Sounds incredibly high to me. Who counts as a “criminal”?
There are likely 10-12 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. I do not believe that a million are criminals. And deporting even a million people would be an enormous task. Kind of like deporting everyone in South Dakota. Besides this, the actual presidential candidate says he will deport 20 million people. Is Vance suggesting Trump is lying?
If they're here illegally, then their all criminals. Then all you have to do is conflate that with rape and murder and viola....
I get that, but then how do you not say deport them all since they are all equally criminals? Who are these million that require deportation immediately?
Nobody except journos watches the VP debates, and similarly nobody else really cares about them either.
JV Vance was smooth and effective, sure. He is a cameleon and such a hypocrite, he can gaslight anyone with a smile. Generally Waltz was ok, not brillant but coming off as normal.
A few things come to mind "the GOP has to earn back the trust of women on abortion", yeah, and you know the reason **why** women don't trust you on freedom of choice? Because you treated them like second class humans and betrayed them. Another one is the answer to whether Trump lost the 2020 election. And there Waltz really nailed him when he said "That a damning non-answer" and "there is a reason why Mike Pence isn't on this stage". Right on.
I listened to the debate from another room, where I was on a computer doing other stuff. I could tell Vance was smoother, and that shook up Walz a little. He spoke too fast and didn't complete his sentences properly.
Once I began to focus on what they were saying, it sounded like the same debates we've been hearing for several decades. The Republicans lie continuously and with no fact-checking in place, it's disgusting. Walz wasn't capable of keeping up, just as Biden couldn't. So far, it's the women who have done best at calling out the Rs for their lies. Hillary said they were "despicable" and Kamala stomped Donnie.
The facts are important, and when the Rs are lying, as Vance did, you can tell they don't have real substance which the public might want in government. No, Trump didn't "save Obamacare". No, the January 6th attack on the Capital wasn't "peaceful". No no no.
If Americans want a good economy, and can overlook all the lying, grifting, and other awful stuff, they might vote for Trump. But, a lot of the Trump policies are not standard-issue Republican or Conservative. Even W Bush couldn't support Trump craziness, though he isn't vocal about it. Even Darth Cheney doesn't support him, and he says so aloud. Even the people who worked in the Trump administration don't trust him. There are very good reasons to leave him in the past and just move on.
It's time for America to be proud of who we are, keep working joyously to do even better, and put aside all the hate, divisiveness, and lying.
Vance lies so easily and smoothly that it's almost impressive. No wonder the moneyed VC types love him.
look at who his mom & dad are.
jimmy may not be an addict, but he's definitely his conniving junkie mom's son. he may not be a physically abusive partner (he's absolutely emotionally abusive), but he's definitely his violent father's son.
Based upon the debate (only) I hope BOTH parties vote to increase Secret service protection because God help us if either Kamala or Donald get killed while in office.
I understand, intellectually, that Tim Walz was working hard at being the nice guy in the room, but that isn't what anyone wanted to see, or needed to see, and he seemed to let Vance simply slither away with murder time after time.
Probably saved Joseph Gerbils political career, an outcome no one but the entirely corrupt could possibly want.
Watching Vance last night was like watching a parasite riding a poison slug right into RFK, jr's brain.
"J.D. Vance Shines, Tim Walz Stumbles "
From the supposedly serious "The Dispatch".
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/dispatch-politics/j-d-vance-shines-tim-walz-stumbles/
Vance lost his cool and continued shouting at the moderators after his time was up, because they dared to fact check one of his lies. They had to turn off his mic to get him to shut up and continue the debate.
How is that "shining"? He threw a temper tantrum because they showed that he was lying about whether Haitians were legal immigrants or not.
Definitely not shiny. Dems need to put that tantrum into an ad, as an adjunct to video clips of TFG losing his mind.
Before President Biden dropped out and most of us had never heard of Tim Walz, the former geography teacher gave a talk to a large gathering of Geographic Information Systems professionals about how the Governor of Minnesota uses their work to decide where citizens can be most benefited. 30 minutes, well worth your time. https://youtu.be/Ni8BrT0-6gM
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I thought Vance sounded like a used car salesman who never gives the customer a direct answer. Plus, those stupid tinted contacts. Really J. D.? Lemme tell you sumpin': Real grown-ass men, you know, like Tim Walz, don't do tinted contacts.
The main take away on the "lame" stream media is that Vance refuses to say Trump lost in 2020.
I don't know what people are seeing in their social media feeds, but if that is the main take a way from a more or less "normal" debate, then that's OK. Only thing I remember from 2020 VP debate is the fly sitting on Pence's face.