Benjamin Netanyahu may not be popular in Israel these days, but his war is. Among Israeli Jews:
- Only 37% support a negotiated end to the war, even on favorable terms.
- 68% oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza, even if UNRWA isn't involved.
- 83% say there's little chance of ever reforming the Palestinian Authority.
- 72% think the establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state would either increase terrorism against Israel or have no effect.
This is from a poll conducted last week by the Israel Democracy Institute. It's why Netanyahu can so easily brush aside American pressure to rein in the war: Israelis may not trust Netanyahu, and they may not even believe that total victory against Hamas is likely, but they sure want to try regardless. Netanyahu may not have Israelis on his side, but his war policies do.
“It's why Netanyahu can so easily brush aside American pressure to rein in the war…”
Still doesn’t explain why America has to keep sending money and weapons to Israel though. Israel is welcome to rebuff our advice, but we are also welcome to cut off aid to them too if we don’t like the rebuff. I can only conclude that the US’s leaders want to see (or at least are indifferent to) Gaza wiped clean of all inhabitants.
Congress controls the purse strings and there is very little opposition to cut or reduce funding to Israel, even amongst the MAGA crowd
Congress doesn't control the State Department or Biden's mouth.
maybe especially amongst MAGA?
Perhaps because Hamas killed Americans in their October 7 attack and are still holding American hostages in violation of all the laws of war?
Why aren't you calling for Hamas to surrender?
Hamas and all other armed factions surrender then the shooting will stop. Demand that.
Why this obsession among the American left with betraying our allies and cutting off weapons to them? This has a long shameful history going back to the Democrats cutting off weapon shipments to South Vietnam at the end of the Vietnam War.
You and your ilk are despicable scum.
Hamas and all other armed factions surrender then the shooting will stop.
There's no evidence to support this. It would, by definition, end all Palestinian shooting. However, Israel shows no inclination to end its policies of economic blockade, land theft, and arbitrary martial law. All of those are acts of war, so there is no reason to think that the war will actually end.
Why this obsession among the American left with betraying our allies and cutting off weapons to them?
Just because someone is putatively an ally (and the history on this regarding Israel is equivocal) doesn't mean that I am going to support them in committed crimes. Israel is just as guilty of mass criminal acts as the Palestinians are.
I saw what you did there...
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Note how you are equating mass rape, murder, kidnapping, and terrorism by a terrorist oranization with "economic blockade, land theft, and arbitrary martial law".
Now, what economic blockade? Israel refused to permit certain goods for Gaza to pass through its territory. That is totally legal under international law. For some strange reason, Egypt does similarly... a fellow Arab and Muslim nation. How strange!
What land theft? What land has Israel taken from Gaza in the past 20 years? Now, of course, Israel is going to establish a buffer zone inside Gaza to make it harder for Hamas to repeat Oct 7. Funny how attacking a neighbor and committing mass rape, murder, torture, and kidnapping has certain consequences. FAFO.
What martial law has Israel imposed in Gaza pre-Oct 7? There will be martial law going forward. Again, FAFO.
Finally, I notice you do not dispute that if Hamas and other armed factions surrender then Israel will stop shooting.
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Right... I am sure you can point to the long history of Israel committing mass rape, torturing innocent civilians, deliberatgely burning civilians alive, and kidnapping babies under the age of 1.
Nah... I didn't think so.
Tell us you are an anti-Semite without saying you are an anti-Semite....
Note how you are equating mass rape, murder, kidnapping, and terrorism by a terrorist oranization with "economic blockade, land theft, and arbitrary martial law".
Hamas's crimes are more viscerally heinous. Israel's are more pervasive. I have no idea which is worse, because they aren't really comparable.
Your argument seems to be that, because Hamas is evil, we must ignore the evil that Israel does. I expect that sort of moral obtuseness, but it's still disappointing.
What land theft? What land has Israel taken from Gaza in the past 20 years?
Ah, the pretense that the West Bank and Gaza are completely separate problems. It's a stupid argument.
Now, of course, Israel is going to establish a buffer zone inside Gaza to make it harder for Hamas to repeat Oct 7.
So long as no one makes the idiotic claims that Israel has somehow entirely withdrawn from Gaza while declaring large parts of it to be a free fire zone.
Funny how attacking a neighbor and committing mass rape, murder, torture, and kidnapping has certain consequences.
Funny how attacking a neighbor and committing large scale dispossession and arbitrary detention has certain consequences. Another really dumb pretense is that this war started on October 7th.
What martial law has Israel imposed in Gaza pre-Oct 7?
Back to the stupid pretense that the West Bank isn't relevant.
Finally, I notice you do not dispute that if Hamas and other armed factions surrender then Israel will stop shooting.
That is an extremely bizarre response to what I wrote. Again, and in all caps because you're clueless; THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT ISRAEL WILL STOP ENGAGING IN ACTS OF WAR IF HAMAS SURRENDERS. Acts of war carry an implicit threat of shooting, and will very often devolve into doing so.
Right... I am sure you can point to the long history of Israel committing mass rape, torturing innocent civilians, deliberatgely burning civilians alive, and kidnapping babies under the age of 1.
That's a far from comprehensive list of crimes.
Israel refused to permit certain goods for Gaza to pass through its territory.
False. The blockade includes naval patrols in Gazan territorial waters. It includes Israeli control of Palestinian airspace, and their destruction of the airport in Gaza.
"Hamas's crimes are more viscerally heinous. Israel's are more pervasive. I have no idea which is worse, because they aren't really comparable."
Well said.
Terrorism is called asymmetrical warfare for a reason. Terrorists are too weak to win militarily. Consequently the stronger side is actually capable of pervasive crime, the weak side can only manage paroxysms of rage. So you get two non-comparable classes of crime.
Next to this fatal codependence between Hamas and Israel lies the Palestinian Authority. Hapless, weak, corrupt, undermined, mocked, ignored. As far as I can see they are the non-criminals in the mix. Maybe I'm due for another disillusionment, but shouldn't refraining from crime count?
There's plenty of criminality on the part of Fatah. It's just less "I'm going to kill large numbers of people," and more, "I'm going to steal everything from the people I'm supposed to be representing." And there is killing involved. Like all protection rackets, Fatah uses the threat, and sometime reality, of violence to enforce compliance.
As I've said before, though, Israel bears a large share of the blame. They've spent two decades making sure that the PA is too weak to do anything useful, but strong enough to stay in power in the West Bank.
I'm not sure it is a good analogy, but in the absence of an active process I see the PA as a quisling government dancing on the edge of collaborationist. Governments like that do not attract the principled and are especially prone to corruption. So I see corruption as structural in part. Bantustans were also known for their corruption.
If there were ongoing good faith negotiations toward two states the structure would make sense as an interim measure.
Like you I am uncomfortable distinguishing between vicious paroxysms of rage and pervasive cruelty and oppression. I see these crimes as joined in the project of eliminationism, overt in the case of Hamas and concealed on the part of Israel.
Protection rackets are vile, but lower on the hierarchy of crimes than Ethnic cleansing, dispossession, and using the full force of official government action to oppress.
Interested in your thoughts on these distinctions, I am not an area expert.
Tragically, if you read the polling, the majority of BOTH Israeli and Palestinians oppose a viable two state solution: they both seem to believe in, from the river to the sea/the other side should really not have the right to exist within the territory.
AFAIK I don't think the Palestinians were consulted. The British made promises to Jews and Arabs, but I don't think actual residents of Palestine were given a say in the matter. Colonial powers are like that...
As David Ben-Gurion wrote to his wife, quoting David Lloyd George:
Pre WW2 promises were indeed made to the Arabs living in Palestine.
Cite for that?
John Judis
newrepublic.com/article/177306/israel-colonialist-state-history-today
Let's start with the Palestinian Mandate. Through it's invocation of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, established that Palestine was an independent country. The Mandate itself, especially Article 28, makes it clear that the British were to turn governing authority over to a single, multiethnic government when they ended the Mandatory period.
One of the two is actually destroying towns. Makes the claims of the other one kinda pointless to comment about, doesn't it?
It seems likely Hamas has the will to destroy towns. What they lack is the wherewithal. Doesn’t make them any more virtuous.
No, the majority of Palestinians polled favor a two-state solution based on 1967 borders, https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/. Also, from the river to the sea means different things to different people. For many Palestinians, in fact all I have heard using the phrase, it means the freedom for them to be where they want between the river and the sea. For Israelis, who already have that freedom, it seems to mean total control, or even expulsion of all Palestinians.
The Israelis have made several proposals intended to end with two states - see Oslo.
On October 6, there was a significant share of Israeli society in favor of a two state solution. On October 8, of course (and now) those minds have changed. Israel will not agree to a Palestinian state with the capability to attack Israel for at least another generation.
The Israelis have made several proposals intended to end with two states - see Oslo.
This is false. Every Israeli proposal contained the following stipulations:
1) The Israelis would control the borders of Palestine for at least ten years, controlling what and who may cross in either direction. After that, the borders would continue to be occupied by some, unspecified, foreign power.
2) The Palestinians would not be allowed to have a military. They would not be allowed to control their own foreign or security policies. They would not be allowed to enter into any agreement with another country without Israeli approval.
3) The Palestinians would be required to allow Israeli military facilitie3s on their territory.
4) The Israelis would have the authority to enter Palestinian territory with military force any time they declared an emergency. The definition of what constitutes an emergency would have been left unilaterally to Israeli discretion.
5) The Israelis would control Palestinian airspace.
6) The Israelis would have controlled all of the water in the aquifers underneath Palestinian territory.
With those conditions, the Palestinian entity would not have been anything close to an actual state. It would have more closely resembled the Bantustans created by apartheid South Africa.
You may think that those conditions were justified, but it is a lie to argue that the Israelis ever offered a two state solution.
On October 6, there was a significant share of Israeli society in favor of a two state solution.
No, there wasn't. There was a significant share of Israeli society in favor of what they liked to pretend was a two state solution. There was never any significant constituency for an actual two state solution. What has changed since then is that they have stopped pretending.
Shrug... that's how you solve something like this.
No one is going to let the Palestinians have a military until they prove they can be trusted not to attack Israel with it.
You should look at how Germany and Japan were treated after WWII. They had to earn back trust.
Let's see the Palestinians cut off payments to terrorists and their families, end teaching incitement in their schools, and otherwise demonstrate they can be trusted. That's what the Germans and Japanese did, and a generation later they got back full sovereignty.
for over twenty years the Palestinian authority has cooperated with Israeli security and opposed terrorism.
In that same period Israel assisted Qatar getting money to Hamas, $25M a month, cash in suitcases.
Not the picture you paint at all.
what do you call people who prop up terrorists?
The analogy to Germany and Japan is deeply stupid. Even before the war was over, the Western Allies had made it clear that they were not going to annex territory. They committed to returning full sovereignty to the Germans and Japanese. They had a time frame for doing so, which is far shorter than a generation.
Yes, the Israelis are definitely in favor of "the Final Solution."
And, as a sovereign nation, the U.S. has to decide whether it wants to keep sending weapons and ammo to Israel until every last Palestinian is dead. I don't actually give a shit whether or not that would make Biden popular in Israel; he has U.S. citizens to consider first.
You mean like the US citizens murdered by Hamas on Oct 7 and the ones still being held hostage by Hamas?
I totally agree.
The way to end this war is for Hamas to surrender.
Snide efforts to compare Israel to Nazi Germany's efforts to exterminate all Jews is vile, really beyond the pale.
No... it is about 50% of the modern Democratic Party.
No, it's a matter of believing your own eyes and ears. Kevin's poll information was genuinely surprising to me, and Israel's continuing murder of innocent Gazans cannot be spun away.
Despite the efforts of "esteemed" commentators like MF-Tango. I wonder how much they are getting paid?
It's why Netanyahu can so easily brush aside American pressure to rein in the war
For Bibi there's also the nice added value of making a Biden loss more likely. I still maintain Biden is the favorite (based on my view of the likely trajectory of national conditions over the next eight months). But there's very little doubt that the Gaza situation is problematic for the president in political terms.
I know there's supposedly a rift between Trump and Netanyahu, but I don't believe for a second a political operator as shrewd as Bibi would allow personal pique to cloud his judgment as to which election outcome is best for him.
Netanyahu has approximately zero incentive to stop the illegal collective punishment of the Palestinian people and end the humanitarian crisis.
Biden is stuck. Overall support for Israel is 50/50.
The youth non white vote he needs to win are staunchly pro palestinian.
The suburban moderates he needs to win are supporting Israel.
So hes just fucked.
He's fucked if he conflates Netanyahu with Israel. But he doesn't have to. He's vastly more popular in Israel than Bibi is. Also, I think there's a lot of nuance in "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine". Most pro-Israelis aren't happy with Israel becoming a pariah state, with the radicalizing of its population, with the potential for escalation and so on. No, I don't think Biden has no good options. I think his brain freezed into blind support for Israel long ago.
the pro-Israel people I know aren't happy with Israel becoming a pariah state because they think israel does no wrong. They are out of touch with the why of it.
So they are unhappy with anything less than unconditional support, it's so undeserved. Suggesting maybe bombing children isn't in Israel's interest is like suggesting good prenatal care is pro-life to an Alabama Republican.
Are you suggesting that if terrorists hide behind children they become untouchable?
How do you think Israel should get its kidnapped people back and deal with the people who murdered 1200 other Israelis?
Perhaps send them flowers and a diplomatic note?
Yes. It's not OK to kill 10 civilians to get one Hamas. At this point we're at more like 30.
Israel propped Hamas up knowing full well who they were.
You prop up terrorists, they do terror, and then in palpations of rage you bomb apartment blocks. That's not a story of an innocent government without agency.
I wonder why the anti-Semites on this site make up such silly lies.
1. By 21-Jan Israel had killed 5,000 - 9,000 Hamas Combatants - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war#:~:text=The%20IDF%20and%20US%20intelligence,in%20southern%20Lebanon%2C%20and%20Syria.
2. As of that time, total deaths in Gaza were under 25,000 (same source).
Therefore the ratio of civilians to combatants killed is somewhere between 2.5 to 1 and 4 to 1. When you factor in the fact that many Palestinian civilians have been killed by misfired Hamas rockets, you get an even better ratio for the Israelis. 30 civilians for each Hamas member killed is a ludicrous lie.
In addition, you claim Israel propped up Hamas. How, exactly? By not invading Gaza earlier? By letting Qatar send them cash supposedly to support Gaza civilians and pay for government? Should they have cut this off and let the government collapse?
I'm no anti-semite, and you are correct not all the people killed in Gaza were civilians. I stand corrected. It was not bad faith on my part.
Thanks for giving a source, the full quote is "The IDF and US intelligence estimate Israel killed 5,000-9,000 Hamas combatants as of 21 January 2024.[14] A further 320 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank by Israel military and settlers.[15] Casualties have also occurred in other parts of Israel, as well as in southern Lebanon, and Syria"
The cited source is WSJ, I don't have a subscription. This subject is surprisingly under-covered, your source is as good as any I saw.
Different people will have different ideas of a morally justifiable civilian/combatant death ratio. 2.5:1 to 5:1 is less outrageous than 30:1.
He's vastly more popular in Israel than Bibi is.
Biden isn't running for reelection in Israel.
This is just depressing.
I'm reluctantly viewing this as a systemic issue; personalities cannot solve it, instead they end up being pulled into the morass. It is utterly morally corrosive, there is no high ground here.
disagree. high ground is two state solution. Israel and Hamas on the low ground, Palestinian Authority alone on the high ground.
this post is why I read KD. I didn't read about this poll elsewhere, and it really helps understand the situation.
If the poll results end up not being widely disseminated, it's probably because any outlet that published them would be accused of "antisemitism." Because those ae some very cruel and hateful positions.
Poll conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute, Jerusalem, Israel.
Netanyahu and Hamas really do need each other...
Codependent.
I’ve read numerous accounts elsewhere that back this up:
“Only 37% support a negotiated end to the war, even on favorable terms.”
I don’t know if this really comes across in mainstream American news outlets, but in Jewish publications it’s easier to discern a more united (though by no means unanimous) perspective on the ongoing war.
And I think it’s legit to ask, as some here have done, if the USA should continue funding that mindset. I do not think, by any means, that there’s a straightforward answer. Would anyone argue that they think the world is better off while Hamas continues to exist? I’m simply acknowledging the legitimacy of debating US aid to Israel.
That question aside, however, it’s much less clear to me how Israel could be negatively judged for feeling as it does. If the USA had been attacked by terrorists who killed thousands of our citizens, public sympathy would broadly line up behind retaliation.
Yes, that introduces new problems. Public support can be manipulated for nefarious ends. But the support itself strikes me as entirely understandable.
Who judges Israel for feeling as it does?
When the USA was attacked we went (what is the technical term) effing crazy. And we rode those "feelings" into an idiotic war that killed hundreds of thousands.
The terrorist playbook is simple. Do evil that provokes people into harming themselves far more than you could manage yourself.
The anti-imperialist playbook taught by the CIA to the Mujahideen.
@TomTom502:
“Who judges Israel for feeling as it does?”
I have to ask if this is some kind of joke. Have you heard of American higher education? More specifically: the so-called Ivy League?
“And we rode those ‘feelings’ into an idiotic war that killed hundreds of thousands.”
As I say above: “Yes, that introduces new problems. Public support can be manipulated for nefarious ends. But the support itself strikes me as entirely understandable.”
The feelings are understandable. The actions are judged.
Really, I need to spell this out?
@TomTom502:
“The actions are judged.”
I would have asserted that the actions of any nation are complex and, as with all situations in life, strike a potentially precarious balance between pro and con.
But if you want to skip straight to judgment, I’m sure you’d find yourself right at home in any Ivy League ethnic studies course (or, to save money, just hang out with the radicalized lefties on Twitter).
If?
Do you remember the mood in late 2001?
Yes. And I knew at the time we were losing our heads. If you didn't maybe that is something to reflect on.
I've said it before and this just convinces me further: Israel is Bad for the Jews.
$140,000 was raised within a few days in the US to support one of the sanctioned West Bank "settlers," despite the fact that giving money to him probably subjects the donor to legal issues of their own.
Probably many, many times this amount of money is available to target any politician who is deemed unfavorable to Israel.
This -- plus the fact that Israelis and their American supporters have gone crazy and are rationalizing genocide -- is why the support of the American government for Israel is so unwavering.
"Mr. Blinken spoke at a news conference in Buenos Aires, after Israel’s finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, made an announcement on Thursday indicating thousands of new residences would be added to settlements."
I just don't understand how people remain so pro-Israel in the third decade of this BS.
I just don't understand how people remain so pro-Israel in the sixth decade of this BS.
@TomTom502:
Along with much of the American Left, you discredit yourself more than Israel with these reductive observations:
“I just don't understand how people remain so pro-Israel in the third decade of this BS.”
Are you seriously asserting that you honest-to-God cannot think of a single reason for pro-Israel sentiment? If so, here’s an obvious follow up question: do you live in a cave? Or, more specifically, an ideological echo chamber?
Your post highlights a legitimate problem with Israeli settlements in the West Bank. But the implicit assumption in your statement is that the settlement problem more or less encompasses Israel itself, its history, and its people. As I said: reductive. In the extreme.
No, the implicit assumption in my statement is that two states is the only non-monstrous path. Israel under Netanyahu has consistently worked against peace for decades now.
Consequently people of good will aware of these bad acts cannot remain lop-sidedly pro-Israel.
Only the Palestinian Authority, flawed as it is, in word and deed shows commitment to a peace process.
Right now Biden and Blinken want Gaza governed by the PA, and Israel opposes this utterly.
Try to imagine Gaza five years hence. Will it be rebuilt? Where will the 2M Gazans be?
Israel has had seventy five years to make peaceful accommodations with the people it ethnically cleansed in its founding.
It not only has failed to do this, it hasn't really even tried.
Israel is a failed state and its citizens should pack up and go elsewhere.
Is that harsh?
Was it harsh for Israel to drive out some 700,000 Palestinian Arabs in 1947-48? Is it harsh for Israel to have killed 30,000 and counting Gazans?
Israel is a kapo state now. Armed and protected by America.
Much to do with framing poll too, which seems to presume everything else will stay fairly the same if they continue destruction and massacre of Gaza or not. Things will not stay the same however, because free countries are just that, free, and only influenced by elites. Disallowing humanitarian aid will bring broken relations with free people around the world, and it truly would be a sad to see Israel go down in history with a pariah (at one time) like South Africa (not to make any claims about apartheid, just abhorrent uncivilized behavior), especially when it's really not necessary, this is more about revenge and a show of power more than anything else, a blood lust that has blinded them into thinking slaughtering women, children and other random civilians shows strength.
In the aftermath of WWII, and the concentration camps, the world came together and said no more, and we should still support and defend those principles, which begin with human dignity and life.
But instead, the world, particularly the United States, decided to support just one of the ethnic groups who were the victim of those concentration camps. Said victims also scrapped the "principles" (because "never again" only means us!!) and have decided that they are now entitled to use those horrific techniques on whoever they want. They earned it, amirite?
Yes. Israel is powerful and has agency.
They could pull back on settlements, they choose not to.
They could support and buttress the PA, they choose not to.
They could have undermined Hamas, instead they undermined the PA.
They could have shown restraint after a vile terrorist attack, instead they chose to lash out indiscriminately.
They could participate in a peace process, they choose not to.
There are three governing parties, Israel, the PA, and Hamas. Of the three only the PA wants to bring about a two-state solution. If you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem.
"They could support and buttress the PA, they choose not to.
They could have undermined Hamas, instead they undermined the PA."
British Gas found a natural gas field (~1T CuFt) off shore of Gaza in 1999. According to the Oslo Peace Accord this gas belongs to the Gazans and the Palestinian Authority signed a contract with BG in 2002 to bring gas from offshore wells to a processing facility in Gaza. This is precisely when Israel started funding and otherwise supporting Hamas. By 2007 Hamas was in control of Gaza (again, by Israeli design) and Israel established a militarized naval blockade to prohibit further offshore development.
So, YES, Israel undermined the PA and supported Hamas, which only has any power whatsoever because Israel made it so. The day all the Gazans have all fled or been shot/bombed by the IDF is the day Israel takes possession of the Gaza Marine gas field.
I have maybe noted here that surprisingly there is no Partisan Movement to save Gaza, no von Stauffenberg and his officer core trying to kill their Hitler-like-leaders.
This somewhat suprising, there are near riots in Israel today against the war and there government...yet not a peep from Gazians in these regards...No repudiation of Hamas that have brought them to this...crisis of existence.
Are they all cowards or are they all Hamas and there will never be a civilian uprising hanging their Mussolini by the heels in an abandoned gas station?
What is there to say about Gazians given the above? (I like Palestinians, they treated me very well in my stay in the West Bank, obviously I hate Hamas pretty bad...) Traveller
yet not a peep from Gazians in these regards
This is a pretty good way to indicate that you don't put any effort into learning what Gazans are actually saying:
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/1229856738/gazans-are-becoming-more-openly-angry-with-hamas-for-the-wars-toll-on-civilians
https://jewishinsider.com/2023/12/hamas-gaza-israel-war-october-7-palestinians/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-60173481
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html
Also, if it's your desire that a population rise against their government, bombing and starving them is an extremely counterproductive approach. This was the theory behind the British area bombing of Germany during WWII. The theory, in line with prewar theorists of strategic bombing, was that a sustained bombing campaign targeting civilians would lead to large scale absenteeism in war industries, and rising discontent leading to open revolt against the government.
That's not how it worked out, though the Allies didn't have the data on that until their survey work after the war. In practice, it had the exact opposite effects. It makes the civilian population apathetic and more dependent upon the authorities. They become focused entirely on survival. And, in a complete surprise, people who are subject to large scale bombing overwhelmingly blame the people dropping the bombs, rather than anyone who might have provoked them.
You may think that it is completely irrational that Palestinians aren't turning on Hamas, but it's a form of irrationality that human beings are extremely prone to.
Also, if you want to express any sort of sympathy for them, it's "Gazans," not "Gazians."
Well written, closely argued reply to Traveller. Hope to see a similarly well-constructed reply, but I'm not holding my breath.
1. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Terrorists terrorize to provoke their enemy into over-reacting. Why would Hamas "officers" rebel?
2. There are near riots in Israel against the war? Source? Per Kevin's post the war is popular in Israel.
3. You are either a coward or you are Hamas if you don't do what a few German officers did after they started losing WWII?
What you write says nothing at all about Gazans.
"And, in a complete surprise, people who are subject to large scale bombing overwhelmingly blame the people dropping the bombs, rather than anyone who might have provoked them."
Point taken, I will look at the links.
Thanks, Traveller
Geeze, you guys can Google as well as I
https://www.timesofisrael.com/choose-the-lives-of-our-loved-ones-protesters-to-rally-for-hostages-demand-elections/
"Two sets of protests were scheduled to get underway nationwide Saturday evening — the first calling for an immediate deal to release the hostages held in Gaza, while the second set of demonstrations, demanding elections, will see the return of protests to Tel Aviv’s Kaplan Street.
The Hostages and Missing Families Forum urged the public to join its main weekly rally at Tel Aviv’s Hostages Square at 7:30 p.m. under the slogan: “Choose the hostages.”"
There are no protests in Gaza...no political freedom at all....and I note that none of us would survive a month living under Hamas Rule...that they would kill me and you in an instant is good reason enough to actively seek the destruction of Hamas.
Next the links provided by TheMelancholyDonkey do not say what he says they do except maybe for the last, an American Palestinian ex-pat in Oct 2023.
The others seek help and salvation from Hamas...that's the way I read them.
It is mystifying that anyone Pro-Palestinian can avoid denouncing Hamas, often, every day. Best Wishes, Traveller
Next the links provided by TheMelancholyDonkey do not say what he says they do except maybe for the last, an American Palestinian ex-pat in Oct 2023.
Okay, you're just a liar.
"Hamas has destroyed us," says Adnan Abdelaal (ph). He had to flee his home and then fled for safety three more times. Now he's living out of a backpack. Here's what he says about Hamas' decision to ambush Israel on October 7. "I don't know if they thought about it and what would happen to us. We didn't receive any warning to leave. Now we just look for a loaf of bread to eat."
The way that you treat Israeli and Palestinian criticisms of their leadership is very instructive, in a way that does not reflect well on you. You characterize Israeli protests as opposition to the war, when they categorically are no such thing. They are protesting that Netanyahu is not doing enough to get the hostages ack. That is not the same thing as protesting the war as such. Ditto protesters that want Netanyahu to face new elections. They support Benny Gantz, who is every bit as committed to the war as Netanyahu is.
In one clip from Dec. 6, an elderly Palestinian woman angrily tells a journalist from the Qatari-owned Al Jazeera network that the people in Gaza are starving. When the reporter answers that it’s because no aid is coming in, the woman responds boldly that it is “all going to the tunnels underground…. Hamas takes everything to their homes.”
At the same time, you dismiss Palestinians quite vocally criticizing Hamas As not doing what they very plainly are.
In another video shared on X, a woman, who says her husband was killed in the war, cries saying she can’t find food for her children. She blames Hamas for dragging Gaza’s people into this war with Israel.
“The people of Gaza are dying of hunger and on the brink of a genuine humanitarian catastrophe,” she says in desperation.
And from before October 7th:
"Hamas has billions of dollars in investments in many countries, while people [in Gaza] starve to death and migrate in search of work," said another activist, Amer Balosha, during the social media event.
Congratulations on shameless dishonesty.
Who is avoiding denouncing Hamas? They are terrorists who commit atrocities. where we differ is that I don't equate Hamas killers and Gazan civilians, half of whom are under 18, by the way.
" They are protesting that Netanyahu is not doing enough to get the hostages ack. That is not the same thing as protesting the war as such." Yes, but is there any Palestinian protests at all? Why not? Interesting contrast. And there never have been.
Like your point I previously conceded to, I will concede this also as an over reach by me. But the war that Israeli's support, is like me, a war against Hamas, not the Palestinian people, (except to the degree they support and and protect Hamas...which puts to the question, Who exactly is a civilian in war?
Be that as it may, argue as I might, will you personally call for the rejection of the Hamas Charter? Just asking, because if you are not willing to go there, there probably isn't any point to this chat. Best Wishes, Traveller
Of course I reject the Hamas charter! there is only so much land, there are two peoples, the only decent choice is to share.
Both sides have eliminationists, that is equally wrong from either direction.
Two states is the only solution, currently rejected by both Hamas and Israel.
Be that as it may, argue as I might, will you personally call for the rejection of the Hamas Charter?
This sort of argument is entirely in bad faith. It is a form of, "When did you stop beating your wife." Why don't you try actually engaging rather than being a weasel and insinuating things that aren't true?
I will repeat what I've said multiple times in this thread, and in others: Hamas is evil. Both its goals and its methods are evil.
Do you personally call for the rejection of Israeli land theft and arbitrary detention? Or do you support war crimes when committed by one side, but not the other?
I would not hold my breath for an answer.
A quick Yes, but such rejection is nuanced...we have shifted from Hamas to West Bank....What is Land Theft?, if you say 1967 borders or East Jerusalem then No, to various degrees I support these land transfers. There is a lot to unpack here.
Arbitrary Detention? How arbitrary? Is this true to the extent you seem to be saying...? Israel prisons are huge and mostly terrible...so is the US. A difficult question...maybe even an unfair question for this discussion.
Gotta run. I think we still disagree. Traveller
What is Land Theft?
Land theft is conquering territory and then transferring parts or the whole of it to your own country. This has been, unarguably, illegal since the 4th Geneva Convention was signed in 1949. Israel ratified the Convention in 1951, so they are bound by it.
if you say 1967 borders or East Jerusalem then No, to various degrees I support these land transfers.
So, as I suggested above, you are in favor of war crimes when committed by one side.
Arbitrary Detention? How arbitrary?
Israel is holding between 2,500 and 3,000 Palestinians in detention without having filed charges. It's tough to say exactly how many, because there are a number of them that they will neither confirm nor deny that they have incarcerated.
Arbitrary detention: is imposed by military judges and is apparently renewable with no stated limits; there are no charges, no appeal. Estimated 2500 Palestinians are being held, some for years. https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216643555/thousands-of-palestinians-are-held-without-charge-under-israeli-detention-policy#:~:text=However%2C%20even%20with%20those%20hundreds,policy%20known%20as%20administrative%20detention.