This is not a sports blog and I'm not a big college hoops fan, but we could all use a break from politics, couldn't we? So today's topic is the Gonzaga men's basketball team
Here is my sense of Gonzaga: Every single year they have a great record and they get a bunch of attention. And every single year they win a couple of tournament games and that's it.
Some quick googling confirmed this: Gonzaga has advanced past the Elite Eight only once in its history. This doesn't mean that Gonzaga has a bad record. Quite the contrary—especially for a small-school team from Spokane. But neither do they seem to have a record that quite matches their reputation.
This year they're undefeated and there's even talk that Gonzaga will not only finally win the Big Dance, but that they might be the greatest men's basketball team of all time. All time! As I mentioned, I'm not a big hoops fan, but I can still think of some pretty good teams from the past. So once again I googled and took a look at their schedule this year. Gonzaga is indeed undefeated, but in their entire season they've played only one top ten team (#8 Iowa) and that was way back in December.¹ And of course a big chunk of their schedule was against a bunch of West Coast Conference patsies.
So school me. I'm really curious. Why the hype about this year's team maybe being the best in history? Why is their undefeated season getting so much attention without even an asterisk about their relatively easy schedule? Why is a team that hasn't played a top ten opponent since December considered practically a shoo-in against the top four teams they'll have to play to win it all? Help me out here.
¹I'm not trying to stack the deck here. They also won several games against top 20 opponents, and obviously that says a lot. And it's tough to go undefeated, no matter what your schedule is like. They're a good team! But are they really in the running for best of all time?
The objective graph maker is interested in the random number generator.
here's some more detailed stats and analysis on Gonzaga from a couple months ago by fivethirtyeight. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gonzaga-is-dominating-with-speed-and-defensive-disruption/
PRZMEK KARNOWSKI DID NOTHING WRONG.
Not one of your most informed commentaries. Probably should have left it alone.
Gonzaga has never won the NCAA but that isn't really the question is it. Why don't you run one of your charts for who has the most tournament wins in the last 6 years. The Zags would look pretty good on that list. As far as the best team ever--who knows--it is certainly a premature claim. They don't play in one of the top conferences but you too easily dismiss the fact that the beat Iowa--Kansas and West Virginia to start the season. All three teams were in the top 10 a good part of the year. Beyond that only one team West Virginia has come within 10 of them. So I don't know how they would rank against the best teams ever but if you bothered to actually watch them play you would come away with the realization that they are a damn good basketball team. I think you need to return to writing about something you know something about and leave the mean spirited posts to some other blogger.
@camusvsartre
I think KD's disclaimers were clear enough. He's not posing as an expert on college basketball. And it's fair to ask how a team that never wins a championship gets so much attention, and is even seriously mentioned as the best college team of all time. There are a lot of "damn good" basketball teams in the tournament, and KD simply says "school me" on the subject. You don't have to be mean-spirited yourself to do that.
Not all of us are part of the Thomas Patrick Brady, Jr., Cult of Rings.
They are really good, but best ever is kind of absurd. The Alcinder/Walton era UCLA teams are pretty tough to top, IIRC they ran off an 88 game win streak at one point, and that is playing a much tougher schedule than Gonzaga is.
For context here is a quote from an article: In 1971-72, the Walton Gang went 30-0 and had only two games settled by single digits. In 1972-73, they were 30-0 again and won four games by under 10 points. Those teams had multiple future NBA all-stars.
And back then only 1 team per conference could go to the NCAA tournament so a lot of good teams never got a chance to prove themselves in it. One year USC led by Gus Williams lost only 2 games, both to UCLA of course. One year The ACC Championship game had probably the top two teams, NC State led by David Thompson and Tom Burleson vs Maryland with John Lucas, Tom McMillen and Len Elmore, they had an epic final, with only one able to go to the tournament.
The 1992 Duke team was pretty darn good with Christian Laetener, Bobby Hurly, Grant Hill, Thomas Hill, Marty Clark. Loved watching those guys.
Yeah, the phi slamma jamma era Houston were no slouches either
Never won a title.
So, by Cult of Rings logic, Clyde Drexler is a punk. (Hakeem won two rings as the primary contributor in the NBA.)
I honestly had not heard they were being discussed as a "best ever" team. I guess when you go undefeated they'll say that but I really don't see them as best ever. I do think they look like the best team this year, despite not playing in a major power conference. That doesn't mean they'll win it all in a single elimination tournament though. The last team I remember being undefeated going into the CCG was Illinois in 2005 was it? I don't remember anyone talking about them in "best ever" terms either.
As for them disappointing in the tournament, my opinion is they've held their own, especially for the team that's from a non-power conference. Honestly they look a lot like Jay Wright's pre-championship era Villanova before they finally broke through and won it all. A team that's done some damage in the tournament pretty regularly but hasn't quite put together the mix to get over the top. This could be their year though and if it is it'd be a great story.
If I had to pick best ever teams the UCLA dynasty teams with Kareem would be up there for sure. After that...Duke 1992, and the 1979 Michigan State team that had Magic Johnson spring to mind immediately. I went to MSU so maybe I'm a little too high on that Magic-lead team but they did draw the best ratings in championship game history for a reason. I'm sure there's a team from UK that should be on the list and probably one from KU too. Also maybe one of the UNC teams (the one with MJ?) seems like it might make a list.
?
Like driving around a huge mountain curve and becoming hypnotized by it and not keeping up with the curve and suddenly . . .
Like the time Aunt May became Herald of Galactus . . .
What is this?
Only to illustrate how little I know of the topic.
There's no comparison between 2021 Gonzaga and the Duke and UNLV teams that played each other in 1990 and 1991, which were full of players who went on to long pro careers and were probably the best teams of the 64+ team tournament era. Those teams not only were filled with amazing talent, they played brutal nonconference and conference schedules and made deep tournament runs.
The best team of all time was probably Kareem's at UCLA- produced several NBA stars, and went 88-2 with three NCAA titles. They would beat Gonzaga by 20 points just like they did against almost everyone.
Maybe.
I'm old enough and a big enough fan to have watched them all, and I think the Zags' traditional "problem" is simply the level of competition played throughout the year. Their conference isn't good enough for them to win 4-6 tough ones in a row, which it should be noted is hard for everyone.
The game is different now so I object (mildly) to GOAT declarations throughout eras, and as I age more in team sports in general.
As I like to say, had Tom Brady been drafted by Cleveland when he came out nobody would remember his name. There's a lot of stuff involved in Winning It All.
(I always thought UCLA's best was '72-'73, the year Walton went 21 of 22 in the *final*.)
I think this Zags team would mop the floor with those Duke '90/'91 teams: They're just more highly skilled at every position with the exception of Laettner. They would have all sorts of problems with the '92 Duke and Michigan teams and the '90 and '91 UNLV teams, simply due to the elite athleticism those teams possessed.
There's at least three, and probably four, NBA talents on this Gonzaga team and every guy they put on the floor is a triple threat player. There's just not a ton of teams in history with the sheer amount of skill and basketball IQ that this team has.
Would they beat Kareem's UCLA teams? Hard to say: We'd need to determine whether we're playing with a three point line and the current lane width. 🙂
And dunking, too. Against the rules in the 60's.
I think UCLA would do well against the Zags. Except Kareem is awfully old now.
i'm sure kareem still has his sky hook. getting up and down the court might be a challenge, however.
Plus, he can fly the team plane in between game sites.
There's not 4 guys on Gonzaga who are going to have long- Grant Hill level NBA careers. No way.
Best ever doesn't mean a team from era in the past would beat the team today, athletes get better over time, the comparison is how they ranked vs their peers to how teams today rank vs their peers. An average player from today would dominate if he played in the 60s, that doesn't mean he is better than say Bob Cousy, Babe Ruth is the best of all time, of course he wouldn't hit 60 Home runs if he played today.
I actually suspect that unlike in other sports, college basketball is one where even the absolute quality has declined. Top players used to play all the way through their senior seasons. The members of that 1990's Duke team played 4 years. So did the members of the UNLV team. There's simply no one and done freshman who is anywhere near as good as a 21 year old Larry Johnson, or Christian Laettner, or Bill Walton was. And the top teams had several of those guys on the floor.
Watch recent Final Fours. You'll see lower shooting percentage, less crisp passing, and poorer execution than you saw in the early 1990's. That's a natural consequence of having so many underclassmen out there.
Yeah that is a good point.
I think this point has to be front and center in any sort of "best of all time" discussions. You'll hear long-time coaches say that they recruit players and the good ones stay maybe a year. Really elite players like LeBron James don't even play college basketball now.
As for Gonzaga, I always root for them but I understand the nature of the tournament: one and done. 64 or 68 or however many teams and if they lose it's over. It's a lot of pressure and a grind. To win, it helps for teams to have experience with the other elite teams at that level. So a weak schedule isn't about greatness or a lack of it; a weak schedule may disadvantage a team as the field narrows down to the most elite.
"We'd need to determine whether we're playing with a three point line and the current lane width. "🙂
Bill walton reveiwed a book on Pete Maravich and said that a sports writer or former coach went back through ALL of Pete's college games and the stats (which indicated how far out he was when he took the shot).
Walton said if the 3 point line had been instituted when Pete played he would have averaged over 3 years 57 pts per game.
Average.
Brings back memories. Back in the sixties and seventies the UCLA and Southern Cal would play alternate games on Friday and Saturday nights against the Ducks and the Beavers. I still remember attending an Oregon State/ USC basketball game, and then driving to downtown Corvallis. There, fresh off their game in Eugene, were the UCLA National Champions enjoying a late dinner at the Dairy Queen.
The talk about an undefeated Gonzaga also has to do with the Zags having an all-time NCAA record of 2-point shooting percentage and a 91.8 ppg average, which is 6 points higher than the second-best team. These numbers scream national championship.
Having said that, let's compare Gonzaga and USC through three common opponents.
BYU:
USC +26
Gonzaga +17, +11, +10
Kansas:
USC +34
Gonzaga +12
Santa Clara:
USC +23
Gonzaga +14
USC has beaten common opponents by higher margins. Therefore, despite the records, the Zags might not be as tough to beat as we've been led to believe. The Trojans' 34 point blowout of Kansas was eye-popping and it convinced me for the first time that USC might actually beat the Zags if they managed to clear Oregon.
Now, if both USC and UCLA manage to pull off upsets, they'll meet as crosstown rivals in the Final Four. How about that? No one will be able to shut Bill Walton up if that happens.
I am also not much of a basketball guy, but I do watch it some. Of all the teams I have watched this year USC has impressed me the most. Gonzaga is highly favored but it should be a pretty good game.
Baylor is tough too, great offense and D
USC has been impressive and they just got absolutely demolished by the Zags. The game was effectively over 10 minutes into the game. For the record I was not arguing that they are the best team ever. I would probably go with one of the Kareem or Walton UCLA teams. But this Gonzaga team is special and not bothering to recognize excellence because they play in a small conference is really pretty petty.
After the football/non-football split in the Big East, the West Coast Conference is effectively the Twin by Another Mother of the Big East.
Big East:
Villanova
Xavier
Butler
Connecticut
Georgetown
Seton Hall
Creighton
Marquette
Providence
St. John's
De Paul
West Coast Conference:
Gonzaga
Brigham Young
St. Mary's
Santa Clara
San Francisco
Pepperdine
San Diego
Loyola Marymount
Pacific
Portland
Gonzaga 85, USC 66.
Looks like Walton will remain quiet. https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiYWh0dHBzOi8vY29sbGVnZWJhc2tldGJhbGwubmJjc3BvcnRzLmNvbS8yMDIxLzA0LzA0L3N1Z2dzLWhpdHMtdGhlLXdpbm5lci1nb256YWdhLXRvcHMtdWNsYS05My05MC_SAWVodHRwczovL2NvbGxlZ2ViYXNrZXRiYWxsLm5iY3Nwb3J0cy5jb20vMjAyMS8wNC8wNC9zdWdncy1oaXRzLXRoZS13aW5uZXItZ29uemFnYS10b3BzLXVjbGEtOTMtOTAvYW1wLw?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
Big fan and even played the game competitively long after I should have stopped and have watched with clinical interest forever.
Gonzaga is very, very good this year, and the only reason I'll take Baylor in the final, should it come to that, is the quality of the opposition each faces all year.
I think the Zags are hurt every year by that. But the program is awesome, and this year is their best chance ever IMO.
I agree. Great program and usually handicapped by not enough toughening. Wish them luck though.
The sports media usually build up the #1 team or person, however they are ranked. Who wants to read about or watch the #5 team? When boxing was a front-page sport, the current champion (say Mike Tyson) was considered unbeatable, until he was flattened by the next guy (say Buster Douglas).
Team rankings tend to be set early in a season without much evidence and there there is little pressure to change. A small-conference team is just not tested against other good teams as often, so they have a good chance of maintaining their ranking, if they do manage to get to the top.
It's a fun name to say.
The local sports press really does seem to feel this Gonzaga team is special. But you don't have to worry about it Kevin, they have a whole playoff system set up which will show us if the Zags are for real or not.
Much of sports journalism is impressionistic hooha, but there are those who analyze as rigorously as possible. Jeff Sagarin, widely followed statistical analyst at USA Today, puts Gonzaga as 91 in strength of schedule, but with full allowance for that still No. 1 overall by a significant margin. All but one of the 50-plus rankings gathered by MasseyRatings.com have Gonzaga as No. 1, a rare consensus. Greatest of all time? Back to impressionistic hooha.
Computer rankings get plenty of stuff wrong. As Ralph Kiner used to say, statistics are like bikinis. They show you a lot, but they don't show you everything.
KenPom-dot-com also has Gonzaga no. 1.
The Best all time College Hoops team was... 2018 Villanova Wildcats. Crushed everyone in the NCAA Tourney. Gonzaga is an excellent well constructed team but to call a team who played without crowds, in a pandemic stricken year, where plenty of solid competition got felled, is a tad outrageous.
To answer your question as to why they are being talked about in best ever terms...a) they're undefeated; and b) it probably has something to do with how they're being ranked by the newer advanced metric systems - Ken Pomeroy's is the most well known. He ranks teams based on per-possession or tempo-free metrics and his system also uses statistics to adjust for the level of competition. There are other similar ranking systems out there all trying to do some semblance of the same thing as Pomeroy. My guess is all those systems really like the Zags. The thing is none of those systems have a great track record in that the #1 team going into the tournament is oftentimes not the eventual champion. Usually, the eventual champion is a team in the top 10 but it's kind of a U pick-em among those teams as to which is going to come out on top in the tournament.
I follow sports a great deal, and as an alumnus of B1G and PAC12 universities (and with a father who attended Marquette University) I follow college basketball quite a bit. Gonzaga has been a pretty good program for a while now, and even made it to the finals in 2017, where they lost a tough one to North Carolina. They are not a blue blood- not yet at least- but have established themselves as one of the handful of programs year in-year out that will always be in contention.
That praise aside, I've not heard anyone say that they may be the best team in college basketball history. As others have already noted, that's a pretty high bar, with the UCLA teams of the 60s and 70s, the '74 NC State team that took them down, the undefeated '76 Indiana team (the '75 team may have been even better until they lost Scott May at the end of the season).
Gonzaga has been blowing everyone out so far though. Last night they buried a pretty good USC team, and their next matchup will be against UCLA, who I expect them to blow out as well. If they win their last two (including an anticipated final against a very good Baylor team) they'll be the first undefeated champ since the '76 Hoosiers, and will at least have those bragging rights, and can claim to be one of the best in history. Whether it's actually true- who knows?