Israel has (so far) killed about half a percent of the population of Gaza. This is the equivalent of 1.5 million killed in the United States—or roughly 25 Vietnams. Relative to Israel, it's nearly the equivalent of 40 October 7ths.
59 thoughts on “Raw data: Deaths in Gaza”
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The Israelis always get their revenge--and then some.
American bombs and ammo to the rescue!?!?
What is the Deterrent effect...especially on Lebanon. As I've noted previously Lebanon needed to spend its funds on other projects than buying 10,000 rockets to shoot against Israel. Likewise Gaza...
Contra, of course, the wholesale destruction of the Cities in Ukraine has not stopped their resistance....at all.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Traveller
How many cities in Ukraine do you think have seen "wholesale destruction"? 25%? 50%? On a per capita basis it's a lot smaller there than in Gaza.
In the Donbas it's pretty close to 100%.
And the Ukrainiens for some reason aren't giving up...
Will Hamas? Would the Gazans after this horrible month want blood in return?
And some people think they should live together.
Some people like everyone who insists on a one-state solution, right.
Well, I was being sarcastic but I guess it doesn't show.
Or about 475 9/11s
Basically Israel was given two options. Either:
1) Inflict significant deaths, primarily civilian and some fighters, in Gaza.
2) Or, accept the Hamas attack and try to negotiate for the return of the hostages in Gaza. And accept Hamas would attempt this process of attacks over and over.
Note, I have a brother who is retired US Army special forces. He believes, it would be near impossible in Gaza (limited intel, unfriendly locals, tunnels etc) to successfully rescue hostages just primarily special forces.
Your premise is absurd, these are not the only two options.
What you think were the other options?
Assuming those are the two only two options, option two is manifestly the correct one.
Including daily rocket attacks by Hamas?
As opposed to stacking the corpses high in Gaza? Yes.
Absolutely incorrect. Not sure if you’re joking or not. Obviously number one is what needs to happen.
Your position that, given those two options, what needs to happen is a lot of Gazans get murdered, continues to be monstrous and unjustifiable.
Well, the results are likely to be, given 1) Tens of thousands of Palestinians and 200+ hostages die. None of the 1200 dead Israelis and guests come back to life. Given 2), perhaps 200+ hostages are released alive (and of course the dead are still dead). But it is absurd to think there are no other options.
Israel had the choice, for example, not to conduct aerial attacks in densely populated areas, which were unlikely to accomplish significant military objectives (the tunnels where most of Hamas' assets are hidden are too deep). Israel could have delineated and strictly observed safe zones and safe routes. That would not give Hamas any significant advantage, as they are already able to move personnel and materiel safely through their extensive tunnel system. See: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/11/10/world/europe/hamas-gaza-tunnels.html
KenSchulz - I have no military background (unlike my brother). Your response is basically a modified version of the first option I mention.
Perhaps, as you detail the trade off of few civilians killed (assuming that would be the result). Or, maybe, that concept is not military effective: I can't say.
Either way, Israel responds with violence and a lot of death in Gaza.
There is no military solution to the conflict, short of genocide. I did not mean to propose one; I merely gave a few examples of the many choices Israel could have made to reduce civilian casualties, given that it was clearly going to retaliate.
The actions of both the Israeli government, and Hamas, PIJ and Hezbollah, guarantee that the conflict will continue indefinitely.
According to Hamas, you mean.
Previously, Hamas said there were 40,000 people inside the al-Shifa Hospital complex. Planet Labs satellite image from 6 days ago suggest the number is significantly lower. It's crowded with cars lined along the roads but the roads inside remained clear.
Before that, they said an Israeli bomb hit the hospital and resulted in over 500 deaths, but European intelligence suggested it was less than 50 and we now know it was a militant's rocket from inside Gaza.
In the last update, Hamas said there were still 650 people being treated at al-Shifa, down from 5000 just a week ago. 🤔
Why are so few people treating Hamas' figures with skepticism?
"Why are so few people treating Hamas' figures with skepticism?"
Believing Hamas is the left version of believing FauxNews.
Just a few days ago, KD said we can't trust either Israel nor Hamas, and yet here he is citing Hamas' figures.
There are going to be people who think I'm trying to minimize the deaths of Gazans, but I'm more than aware that at least a few thousand Gazans have died.
I find it odd that KD would construct comparatives based on numbers from a source he just told us not to trust.
But most of all, I find it really bizarre that everyone accepts the narratives being offered by Hamas, as if Gazans are uniquely not human, and wouldn't do what most people all around the world have done when confronted with a war in their town: LEAVE.
The Gaza figures are pretty widely accepted. The Biden administration even says they may be low.
Link: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/death-toll-in-gaza-likely-higher-than-is-being-reported-us-official/ar-AA1jEz8l
"Leaf acknowledged the ministry does not differentiate between civilians and Hamas combatants in its death toll."
You told us not to trust either side's official narratives, did you not?
Pointing out that they're widely accepted is like relying on Ukraine's or Russia's official stats rather than OSINT visually confirmed data sites like Oryx's.
Use your brain: What is the US source of data? They have no particular insight into the actual numbers -- they're relying on data from both sides and extrapolating based on satellite imagery.
They never said there were 500 deaths in the hospital explosion. That was a result of horrible reporting:
https://www.silentlunch.net/p/did-the-entire-media-industry-misquote
It’s becoming more and more difficult not to use the g-word.
For a credible view of what's happening right now, I don't think the word is right or helpful.
No doubt the death and devastation in Gaza is horrifying. The people who live there and are working there to help deserve our sympathy.
That's true whether or not the actual number of deaths is inflated.
But I think it's absolutely wrong to be comparing human tragedies on a per capita basis. The value of a human life -- and the grief over a death -- does not rise or fall because a person lives in a small or large country. It is the same. Likewise, a death on one side is the tragic equivalent to a death on the other, even if our minds tend to value one over the other.
There are lots of people who disbelieve IDF's contention that al-Shifa Hospital is being used by Hamas.
Mind you, al-Shifa is not just a single building; it's an entire block with over a dozen structures, parking lots, a park, and roads inside.
So, I guess when Israel has given an ultimatum to Hamas to surrender its position in al-Shifa, people think IDF is making this up, too.
And how many new members of Hamas have been created in the last 5 weeks? For every one they kill, they've likely created a handful more from the non-reactonary Gazans. For example, Hezbollah arose after Israel did the same in the North to the PLO(?).
Until Israel removes the reasons for radicalization, Palestinian oppression, they will always have a reactionaries to deal with.
Do you believe anti-Semites need a reason to hate Jews and the state of Israel? How many Palestinians in Gaza have expressed sadness re: the Oct. 7 massacre? I haven't heard them.
Seriously? WTF is wrong with you??? I don't know too many enslaved people who get upset at the murder of their oppressors. Maybe Gandhi could pull that off, but not a normal person.
https://www.theonion.com/dying-gazans-criticized-for-not-using-last-words-to-con-1850925657
The Onion???
"Do you believe anti-Semites need a reason to hate Jews and the state of Israel?"
Do not conflate Jews with Israel.
I don't think I am.
"Modern Israel came into existence on 14 May 1948 as a polity to serve as the homeland for the Jewish people. It was also defined in its declaration of independence as a "Jewish state", a term that also appeared in the United Nations Partition Plan for British Palestine in 1947." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state#:~:text=Modern%20Israel%20came%20into%20existence,for%20British%20Palestine%20in%201947.
I think it's unlikely that those who hate Jews will not also hate the Jewish state, Israel.
True, but it doesn't work the other way around. People can hate Israel without hating Jews.
Good point.
People can also oppose the policies of Likud, and hold Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Gvir in contempt, and yet support the nation of Israel. Quite a few of those people are Israelis.
They obvi need to kill some more. Nothing generates harmony and deters terrorism among the survivors of death and violence than raining down more death and violence on their relatives.
I’m going to cry myself to sleep tonight and be unable to function tomorrow. There is so much suffering in the world. People are so mean. What should we do?
The deaths in Gaza are bad. But to blame Israel for them is wrong. If Hamas had not decided to attack Israel in a particularly heinous fashion and essentially used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields, well there would be no deaths to compare, would there?
I am not a fan of what Israel is doing on the West Bank, but in the Gaza situation, Israel is in the right. Hamas behaves like some movie-scale villainous evil organization and Gaza and the world will be a better place if the Israelis can destroy them.
Oh dear lord, another idiot who thinks the world began on October 7th. Charts showing a disproportionate number of Palestinains being murdered existed long before that date:
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
We are talking about Gaza here. Keep up with the program here, laggard.
WHOOOOOSH!
Many here seem to think the world began on October 8th.
but in the Gaza situation, Israel is in the right.
Maybe you mean 'the Hamas situation"?
Because wrt "the Gaza situation," Israel is unambiguously in violation of international law, and has been since 1967.
To deny any agency to Israel is also wrong. The brutality of Hamas does not justify any and all actions by Israel in response.
To blame Israel for the deaths in Gaza caused by Israel's bombing, missile strikes, shelling, and on foot attacks by Israeli soldiers is wrong. Hamas made Israel do it.
Sounds like every guy who beats his wife or girlfriend. Baby, why do you make me do this to you?
Goodness yes. Painful to see someone justifying a slaughter while also feeling the need to declare that he dislikes it even though he approves of the slaughter.
While I am not a fan of my fists hitting your face (lol!), I must support this beating because you deserve it.
Is he trying to deceive others? Or himself?
THIS. The historical facts aren't difficult to research nor are they hard to interpret; even the dimmest of these admittedly dimbulb rumdums know exactly what's going on.
And this is what provokes my contempt: Ignorance can be cured and stupidity is something people inherit despite themselves. But this sort of smug self-cogratulation for arguing in transparently bad faith is toxic. These are exactly the sort who killed USENET back in the day.
If you listened to the leaders of Hamas, you would know that Hamas was deliberately trying to provoke a reaction from Israel that would kill a lot of Gazans and thus turn opinion against Israel. So your analogy is nonsensical
I ask you @Salamader, what do YOU think the Israelis should have done? And I do not mean "Not X Y Z" but actual action verbs please.
That is not raw data.
That's cooked and seasoned with one country and two conflicts.
Or one and a half covids.
Two points:
(a) Did Israel *kill* them? Or did they die as a result of the war?
This is not just pettifogging. If you have a war where one side is determined to use human shields and related schemes (like refusing to allow material to be passed into their zone) as a constant ongoing stategy, then definitions of "who is responsible for what" need to be rethought.
(b) If you start a war whose stated goal is to utterly destroy the other side, what exactly do you EXPECT the outcome do be? And do you expect the other side to play ball when your campaign of utter destruction runs out of steam?
.5% casualties are low by the standards of these things. Compare with say ~20% for Serbia in WW1, or ~9% for Germany in WW2.
What would Hamas consider to be an OK casualty count on their side to achieve the "destruction of the Jewish state"?
Be careful ! You will invoke the wrath of certain self-appointed enforcers of a particular closed-minded orthodoxy. They will try to bully you and toss in personal insults. An idiot, a wife-beater, someone who they think should be beaten down.
Yeah, let's call them what they are. Assholes.