The reported death toll in Gaza has reached nearly 20,000. Here's an update of the daily death toll:
Whether by design or by chance, the daily fatality figures have dropped from about 300 per day to 200 per day over the past week. It's not much, but it's a slight improvement.
Is there any reason to trust these numbers?
Various specific numbers from Hamas have been shown to be deliberate fakes. Are these from a more trustworthy source?
Citation? Numerous independent observers have said that, in previous conflicts, the numbers put out by the Gaza Ministry of Health have been substantially accurate: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
If anything, I suspect that the count is significantly lower than the actual number of deaths, as they do not include those who are buried under the rubble.
"Various specific numbers from Hamas have been shown to be deliberate fakes."
Lie. Dozens of NGO's are working in Gaza, and they all say Hamas' numbers are in the ballpark.
I recommend you apply more scrutiny to the sources you have been listening to.
No matter, fake or not, the whole situation is a nightmare and needs to stop immediately.
Agreed. Yet Hamas won't surrender or release the hostages they kidnapped.
Dishonest, bad faith response.
Israel has far more Palestinian hostages than vice-versa. Has Israel shown any inclination to release them?
Is this a serious comment? What Israel has are not hostages. They are terrorists and criminals that have been convicted. What Hamas has are victims of kidnapping who watched their family and friends be slaughtered, raped and tortured.
Israel is holding ~1200 Palestinians in detention without trial, on secret charges, leaving them with no legal recourse.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435
Let's not leave out that many of the kidnapped Palestinains are children. And that, of those who go to trial, the conviction rate is an absurd 99.9%.
https://thejerusalemfund.org/0201/06/palestine-seeks-charge-israel-apartheid-war-crimes-hague/
I'm not saying this in the "what about?" sense, but just a compare/contrast.
What I see Israel doing in Gaza reminds me a lot what the USA was doing in Iraq in response to an attack by terrorists.
Human beings who are attacked always want revenge and more. I'm not saying it is morally right or politically wise, but if Bush had not responded with violence against some or all Arabs, then the Republicans would not have won the 2002 midterms and he would not have been re-elected. Cf. Carter in 1979.
What I mean is that we cannot expect to reduce the violence by causing traffic jams on the 405 or by yelling at Biden or by putting Trump back in the White House. We, meaning Americans, cannot do much at all. It's up to the Israeli people to support something other than rage & murder.
You're analogy isn't totally off base but two issues with it:
1) Pretty much every American wanted some kind of military action to avenge 9/11, not just republicans. To have done nothing would have been unthinkable.
2) 9/11 was a huge blow for us but it pales in comparison to the threat Israel constantly deals with. Al Qaeda was small in numbers, thousands of miles away, and did not have the capability to pose an ongoing, continual threat to us. Israel is surrounded and outnumbered by enemies who want to wipe their country off the map and slaughter all of their citizens. While 10/7 was unique, they have rockets fired at them almost every day. If it wasn't for our aid to help with the Iron Dome Israelies would be killed every day.
1) I never said it was only Republicans who wanted military action. Quite the opposite. I am saying they would have been punished politically if they had not responded with militarily action.
2) I'm not comparing USA's & Israel's relative vulnerabilities. I'm saying the response of the population is similar. Specifically, a demand for a violent response and a toleration of barbarity. Our president approved of torture. People who objected to it were labeled objectively pro-terrorist.
Thanks. Understand where you're coming from now.
" Pretty much every American wanted some kind of military action to avenge 9/11'
That's not true. I knew lots of people, and some in public office, who wanted to make sure this was a case of bringing murderes to justice, not an excuse to wage war. Moreover, I think history has shown how stupid and shortsighted we were. .
It was particulrly egregious that Bush invaded Iraq which had absolutely nothing to do with the attack on 9/11. A majority of Democrats in the House voted against it and 21 out of 50 Democratic Senators voted against it as well and those who who voted for it did so based on misleading information from the Bush administration. .
You should read Timothy Snyder on this. for a different and I beleive wiser take on terrorism.
https://snyder.substack.com/p/terror-and-counter-terror
I don’t think I want to know anyone that didn’t want to wage war after 9/11.
Your circle of cronies is too limited. Lots of folks wanted to go after al-Qaeda. Not "go to war." And certainly not against .. Iraq??
I’m talking about immediately after 9/11 (i.e. Afghanistan). Going into Iraq is a different story, years later, and I don’t associate that with the initial demands for justice and vengeance.
So I disagree. The Jews forgave the Germans and the Japanese forgave America. Time for Palestinian leadership to negotiate and call for that LOUDLY and OFTEN. Bibi probably won't but stranger things have happened
This is questionable history. While it is true that Americans wanted a response to 9/11, that was the invasion of Afghanistan. It is true that the Bush administration ginned up a war against Iraq to benefit from a rally around the flag sentiment. But this was not something that was necessary because of 9/11. Support for the invasion of Iraq came only after it was clear that the Bush administration was determined to invade Iraq. People tend to want to be on the side of a war that we are fighting.
Had we not invaded Iraq Bush likely would have faced the normal problems that the in power party always faces in a mid-term election. But it was not facing an issue like Carter with the hostages. Your analogy might have been better had you compared it with the invasion of Afghanistan. But Iraq was a huge strategic blunder done for short term political gain. Or maybe that was your point.
It is true that a lot of countries tried to tell us that invading Iraq was stupid, the French for example, and we responded be calling french fried freedom fries. But the relationship between the US and France is rather different than the relationship between Israel and the US. For one thing France was not helping us rearm. That seems to be the kind of thing that might justify yelling at Biden.
Those aren't genocide numbers. It's like they're not even trying /s
First, I despise Netanyahu and the whole right wing Likud coalition. They are absolutely one of the main obstacles to any reasonably settlement of this decades long horror story. That said, I don't know what Hamas thought would happen when they sent thousands of terrorists into Israel, with the sole objective to slaughter as many Jews as possible and bring home hostages to trade for prisoners.
Israel's response has been excessive, but not unexpected. Hamas started this latest war, and if they really cared about the civilian casualties, they should have stood and fought the IDF at the Gaza border, instead of hiding behind their wives and children, and in their tunnels beneath their houses.
I have no idea how this is going to end, but I would hope that Israel will not trade any terrorist involved in 10/7, or charged/convicted of murder, for the hostages, and will not transmit one watt of power to Gaza until all the hostages are freed.
+1
Well, unless Netanyahu rescinds what is apparently a 'kill on sight' order, this is going to end with the extermination or expulsion of everyone in Gaza. That there is a kill-on-sight order should be obvious when you read about those 3 Israelis who managed to escape Hamas - especially the third guy.
That's the thing.. Hamas is not only not trying to reduce civilian casualties, they WELCOME and encourage them. This entire thing has been an effort to generate casualties and thus sympathy. It's been Hamas' MO for quite some time, and judging from their approval numbers among the Palestinians and the sympathy they are getting from the world at large, it's been a wild success for them.
As they have stated, the cause needs martyrs. Hamas are true believers who think that sending people to the paradise in the afterlife is not a bad thing.
Glad the US doesn't have neighbors like that...
Bin Laden did the same thing. Not only did Bush attack Afghanistan, but attacked Iraq for good measure. The Brown University Costs of War project estimates that the U.S. blew through 8 trillion dollars and killed a million people in that pair of fiascos.
Agreed. bin Laden and the AQ leadership mostly died (although they are in paradise, right, so that ain't so bad), but in real life, the US so grossly overreacted it was effectively a massive loss for the US and the West. Bush' incompetence was a big factor in that... I sometimes wonder if we had a more skilled foreign policy president like HW Bush or Biden or Gore or even McCain if things might have turned out better...
It is the Palestinian people, not Hamas, who are getting sympathy from 'the world at large'.
That said, I don't know what Hamas thought would happen when they sent thousands of terrorists into Israel, with the sole objective to slaughter as many Jews as possible and bring home hostages to trade for prisoners.
The problem with your analysis is your assumption that Hamas didn't get pretty much exactly the response that they wanted.
Hamas, probably knew that Israel would go hog wild, and further disgrace itself by massive, careless slaughter of innocent civilians, and Israelis have done that in spades. They've also gone even crazier on the West Bank, killing, harrassing, burning, and destroying.
Several countries have halted arms shipments to Israel or have refused to pass along shipments through their ports. Support within the United States, Israel's best and sometimes only, friend, is at an all time low. Statements of condemnation have been coming from all over the world, particularly from Jewish organizations.
Calls for Israel to stop are paired with demands for a Palestinian homeland. For an end to the occupation. For, finally, freedom for the Palestinian population.
When a people are treated like the Israeli occupiers treat the indigenous Palestinians, it's not unreasonable for them to resist. Often violently. A long time ago, some American was quoted as saying "Give me liberty, or give me death!" Don't we understand this sentiment anymore?
Did you get these talking points from the Hamas newsletter?
"Indigenous Palestinians"? Jews have been on that land for about 4,000 years. And if statements of condemnation have been issues by anyone that has not also condemned the 10/7 attacks (with the accompanied torture, kidnapping and rape), the ongoing rocket attacks, the use of civilian shields, and aspirational genocide, then we can ignore them.
Like many, many people in the world, I do not believe owning a piece of land 2000 years ago entitles a settler to kill a Palestinian in front of his children and then confiscate the property the dead guy's family had legally and continuously owned for the last few hundred years. Do not even try to tell me that the old testament justifies that crap.
"Jews have been on that land for about 4,000 years."
*snrk*
The Jews were kicked off that land in the 1st century. They didn't return in significant numbers until the 20th.
Please don't say that you're one of those people who believe "Palestinians don't exist".
Please read the defintion of indigenous people before you comment. It's not what you assume it is.
If the thought-crime of ‘aspirational genocide’ must be condemned, don’t forget to include Binyamin Netanyahu, Bezalel Smotrich, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Yoav Gallant.
The KD self-flagellation shall continue.
Whether by design or by chance, the number of Gazans going hungry has reached more than 90% over the past week and the number of them starving reached more than 50%. That's not Hamas figures. It's United Nations.
When I was in high school, more than 40 years ago, there were roughly 1,000 students total in grades 9-12. Sadly one of my brother’s classmates died in a gun accident. To this day I remember him, his sister, his family. He was 1 in 1,000 and his death was an accident.
Israel has killed 1 in 100 Gazans, intentionally, not to mention the other suffering, as an act of vengeance that shows no sign of stopping. What Hamas did was horrific but if Israel’s leadership believes wiping out Hamas at the cost of killing 1 in every 100 Gazans will soon be forgotten and there will be peace at the end of this, then they are insane.
What do you think would have been the best Israeli response to October 7th? Do you think that the Israeli Government should NOT be trying to destroy Hamas? Seriously, what are the alternatives here?
To not behave like the Nazis of yesterday asking for the genocide of an entire population.
What they should have done was express condemnation for the attacks and appealed to the Palestinians in Gaza offering their help to get rid of Hamas in exchange for renewed peace talks that could lead to their own State.
Offer them assistance in their day to day living and full sovereignty if they were willing to work with Israel and the international community to get rid of Hamas and any other terrorist groups that only seek violence and death on both sides.
Instead they have shown the world that they are no better than the terrorists or any other pariah nation that likes to kill civilians, and the relatives and friends of every innocent civilian they have killed is one likely Hamas supporter either now or in the future.
Their response has been the absolutely worst response they could have made both morally and strategically.
Except the majority of Palestinians support Hamas. Israel's response was the only one available. That said, I definitely think they can be more selective in targeting.
What I’m saying is that Israel is sowing the wind by opting for a scorched earth approach as the only way to attack Hamas
If you don’t like that metaphor then think of Israel as beheading the hydra without thinking about the hydra’s teeth
There is simply no way that Israel’s approach is going to enhance Israel’s long- term security. They may well annihilate Hamas. And in so doing, in the way they are doing it, found their next terrorist opponent.
I just checked the weather report for Israel/Palestine. Coming weekend >20 mph winds with rain, and gusts stronger than that. I help out on open-air markets. With 20 mph winds lots of vendors stay at home. And they have solid stalls. Nothing like the plastic sheets Gazans call "tents". Poor kids. Where can they go? The only "safe zone" left is a beach area with no buildings whatsoever.
What I'm saying is the numbers KD refers to were the bombings of phase 1. Gaza is in phase 2 now and most of the killing will be with hunger and cold. Needless to say that means almost exclusively civilian deaths.
How many of the dead were trying to surrender? Or does one have to believe the hostages that were killed was the only instance when the IDF shot people who were surrendering while waiving white flags. It appears as if the IDF is incapable or unwilling to take the war to Hamas, and simply prefer to target civilians. That’s is not only a war crime and cowardly behaviour but it certainly looks like a genocidal progrom. Wasn’t just today that a high level Israel government official asked for Gaza to be leveled? Biden should hold all aid until Netanyahu steps down and someone with actual military experience who knows how to conduct war steps in.
Yah, that was the first thought that came to my mind when I heard the IDF had killed a couple Israeli hostages.
How many times has the barbarity of Hamas come to your mind?
Frequently. My position is that there are no good guys in this conflict, no one with moral high ground. The fact that the US supports one group of violent fanatics over another is insane.
What makes you think they are not “taking the war to Hamas” and killing many Hamas fighters?
The Israelis sure seem to kill a lot of kids and babies for every alleged "Hamas" member. Have destroyed, blown up, bulldozed a lot of hospitals. Claimed, but never found, "command posts" inside.
Face it:Israel is just in Gaza to liquidate it. Kill everybody, destroy everything. Because Hamas embarrassed the Mighty I Dee Eff.
And no, Netanyahu doesn't care about the Jewish hostages.
Yes, unfortunately Hamas chooses to be cowards and barbarians and use human shields. Their actions have resulted in thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths. Hamas are animals.
Right, because the hostages that were surrendering were actually shields. You don’t strike me as a bright bulb.
Yes, that was a tragedy. Not making light of it, but things like that happen in war, especially when a big chunk of your combat force are reserves that have just been called up. There hasn't been a war (at least in modern times with guns, etc.) where there hasn't been some form of friendly fire. While tragic, it doesn't automatically negate the validity of the war or mean the one side instantly becomes the "villain". If there was negligence (and there almost certainly was in this case) people should be punished and they should take corrective actions to reduce the chance of it happening again.
And I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying because these three hostages were not human shields Hamas does not use human shields? Let's remember why those three were in Gaza in the first place. Because Hamas kidnapped them.
Gee, I wonder who else uses human shields? Oh right...Israel.
Also, the use of human shield by Hamas has been disputed by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
Honestly, please try to educate yourself a little bit before you comment next time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict