Russia really seems to take it personally when a country they've invaded decides to fight back:
Thunderous blasts echoed in the capital, Kyiv, and in Ukraine’s eastern battle zone on Friday, a day after Russia’s most important warship in the Black Sea sank while being towed to port, marking a humiliating wartime setback for Moscow.
Russia’s defense ministry threatened stepped-up missile attacks after its flagship missile cruiser Moskva went down Thursday following what Ukraine said was a missile strike and what Moscow claimed was an accidental fire aboard.
The Russian defense ministry said Friday that in Kyiv, a plant that made and repaired Ukrainian missiles was targeted. The capital had enjoyed a period of relative calm after Russian forces broke off an offensive in Ukraine’s north at the beginning of this month.
Let's get this straight. The Moskva went down in an "accidental fire" so Russia decided to lob a few missiles at Kyiv. And for good measure, they targeted a missile plant even though their ship sank due to an "accidental fire." And they've sent us a diplomatic note demanding that we stop arming Ukraine even though the Moskva sank because of—oh, yes, "accidental fire."
Those accidental fires really piss off the Russians, don't they? Perhaps we should offer the Russian Navy some pointers in how to keep their ammunition holds safe?
To get a good picture of Russian ineptitude in naval problems, enjoy watching "The Hunt for Red October."
Jeffrey Pelt: Mr. Ambassador, you have nearly a hundred naval vessels operating in the North Atlantic right now. Your aircraft has dropped enough sonar buoys so that a man could walk from Greenland to Iceland to Scotland without getting his feet wet. Now, shall we dispense with the bull?
Ambassador Lysenko: You make your point as delicately as ever, Mr. Pelt.
---------------------
Ambassador Andrei Lysenko: There is another matter... one I'm reluctant to...
Dr. Jeffrey Pelt: Please.
Ambassador Andrei Lysenko: One of our submarines, an Alfa, was last reported in the area of the Grand Banks. We have not heard from her for some time.
Dr. Jeffrey Pelt: Andrei, you've lost another submarine?
A movie whose quality is only enhanced by Connery's refusal to even attempt a Russian accent.
"We will pash through the American patrolsh, pasht their shonar nets, and lay off their largesht city, and lishten to their rock and roll... while we conduct misshile drillsh."
See also The Death of Stalin for another example of the cinematic virtue of not faking the accent.
What? Nikita Khruschev wasn't from Brooklyn?
Bob Hoskins will always be the best Kruschev even if Enemy at the Gates is 65% bullshit.
"We shail into hishtory!"
Thank you for posting that quote! Somebody on MSNBC ran that clip last night, remnding me that I just about screamed with laughter at that point in the movie. Great line, great delivery by the actor playing Pelt! Great squirming by the actor playing the ambassador. (Terrific movie overall, IMO.)
Richard Jordan and Joss Ackland.
I looked up Jordan, and learned that, sadly, he died of a brain tumor a couple years after that movie.
I've heard it before, but I just saw this on a military vlog.
The Pentagon just confirmed that the Moskva was struck by two Neptune missiles. Accidentally, of course.
Its interesting, not in a particularly good way, how once the media gets a narrative going they just follow it.
In this case, its the "how long can plucky little Ukraine hold out?"
Well, since Ukraine essentially now has an army numbering in the tens of millions, plus almost unlimited support from the rest of the first world, I wouldn't rank Russia as the favorite.
Moreover, I mean, look how angry the US got after 9/11, I imagine Ukrainian anger is off the charts at this point.
I would not like to be a Russian soldier ordered to hold some Ukrainian position, that's for sure.
So much of the coverage is almost as if Ukraine has no say in this.
Yes, Russia is unprepared for the unexpected. This headline that just showed up on the NY Times website shows that:
Russia sent warnings to President Biden, demanding him to halt shipment of weapons to Ukraine or risk “unpredictable consequences.”
Apparently, 'unpredictable consequences' are not part of the Russian planning drill.
“Stop shipping weapons, or we’ll … blow up another one of our ships!!!”
I hope Biden answered by quoting an anonymous Snake Island guardsman.
They do not have an army in the 10s of millions. They can equip maybe 500k at any one time. Their GDP is going contract by 45%. They still have less and lighter material than Russia. Russia still has not gone to total war footing while Ukraine has.
Russia is still the favorite but Ukraine is absolutely near-peer. And I agree that US media is not giving enough agency to the Ukranians but US media is stupid and parochial.
On the other side of the ledger, 1) the Ukrainian military benefits from millions of forward observers (any civilian with a smartphone); 2) Russia seems closer to the limit of its forces than one would think; it has been reported to be pressuring Belarus and Kazakhstan to send troops. Of course, it has to maintain garrisons in other occupied territories, and in some of its own republics, especially non-ethnically-Russian ones; 3) pledges to rebuild Ukraine exceed €10bn so far. Nobody is going to make up Russia’s losses, in fact, it will see a permanent decline in fossil-fuel sales in Europe.
Many experts on counter-insurgency have stated that Russia does not have the manpower to effectively occupy Ukraine. They could lay up their entire fleet and still not have enough people.
I don’t know that their GDP really matters at the moment. Nobody is expecting Ukraine to make anything right now, not even its own residents, and nobody is shopping in its stores. Right now, all that matters in the Ukrainian economy is “do we have food and weapons?” and as long as the answer is “yes” it doesn’t matter if either came from domestic production or were donated from abroad.
Ukraine has a population of about 43 million. It doesn't really matter how many soldiers they can equip if the western countries' generosity continues. During WWII, the major powers managed to put about 10% of their populations into uniform and support them. Given that support is coming from outside, Ukraine could certainly put 15% of its population into uniform, which is about 6.5 million people.
Of course, that can't be done quickly. It takes time to turn civilians into soldiers, and time to ship in the equipment they need. However, at the outset of this conflict Ukraine had about 120,000 in the regular forces, more than 300,000 in the reserves, and several hundred thousand veterans who had "aged out" of the reserves but still remembered which end bullets come out of. In short, Ukraine could field nearly 500,000 troops (regular and formal reserve) at the outset, and within a week or so the old guys had been remobilized, pushing Ukraine's forces close to a million troops.
It it's true that the Russians have committed less than 200,000 troops to their "special military operation". The Ukrainians may be outgunned but they're NOT outnumbered.
Why should they bother with being logical or consistent? Like Republicans here in the US, their supporters don't care about that so it doesn't matter.
It's been said here before, but I really think Putin was schooled on the techniques of shameless lying by Trump. Even using the phrase "fake news". Putin learned from a "master".
And there, as here, there are more than enough stupid idiots who will believe whatever he says.
Putin was shamelessly lying about who was actually bombing Russian apartment buildings and ginning up a fake war against Chechnya back in 2000 when Trump was desperately trying to figure out how he'd make the jump from bankrupting casinos to bankrupting golf courses. Putin is no geopolitical genius, but Trump is hardly a "master" of anything, and the idea that Putin learned "the techniques of shameless lying by Trump" is asinine.
Putin isn't aping Trump by any means, as, if anything, Trump was enamored of post-democratic strongmen like Putin and wanted to remake the US in *Russia's* image.
I think the difference is before the lies were plausible.
They don't bother with plausibility anymore.
I thnk that by using the terms 'fake news' and complaaining about being 'cancelled' Putin has at least shown he has picked up the phrasing that appeals to Republicans.
"Russia says it blew up its own ship, but takes it out on Ukraine anyway."
At least Russia is being consistent! Russia kleptocracied itself from being a superpower into being a third-rate Brazil-class regional "power," and is currently taking that out on Ukraine.
Putin and TFG are looking more like each other every day.
In today's Wordle, I tried "PUTIN", "TRUMP", and "LEPEN", before I nailed it with "LOSER".
+1
The importance of the fact that the Moscow is now at bottom of the sea is not only the humiliation of the Black Sea Fleet losing its flagship, but the increasing difficulty to almost impossibility of the Russians mounting a sea-borne landing attack on Odessa, thus sparing what remains of Ukraine's coastline making it impossible for Russian troops to link up with their sympathizers in Transdniestra. The fact this was done by a Neptune anti-ship missile, which is basically a modified version of what the Ukrainians already have, imagine what they can do when they can deploy even more powerful British-made Harpoon or French-made Exocet anti-ship missiles?
It's a warning to the world's navies that now matter how fancy your ships look on the surface of the water, it only takes one powerful missile to put under the water. What navies need to invest in is anti-missile technology other all your fancy aircraft carries and missile cruisers as useless as the sinking of the Moscow has shown
Modern warships are provided with Close-In Weapons Systems designed to defeat cruise missiles. Moskva had six CIWS mounts, each with its own radar/video fire-control system; each capable of firing seventy 30mm rounds per second. There are multiple theories: the CIWS may not have been armed, may have failed, may have been decoyed by a drone, or by missiles fired from a drone. I like the last conjecture, because it entails that the Ukrainians weren’t just lucky, they were clever; and because it’s more likely to be repeatable. CIWS are necessarily fully automated; countering the decoy scenario would require reprogramming the system, preceded by a lot of re-analysis.
I think the Bayraktars have run out of missiles. Haven't seen any drone boom footage for a while so may be just recon now.
It’s not as though the missiles carried by the Bayraktars would do significant damage to a cruiser anyway. If I were the Ukrainians faced with this problem, I’d jury-rig a alternate that would fire a bunch of simple homemade rockets, the kinds of things the Gazans weld up in garages, and wire it into the drone’s firing circuit. They’re just decoys; erratic flight would likely be a feature, occupying the CIWS longer.
Ken-
I read on another site another idea that bears some thought
If the Moskva didn't feel threatened they may NOT have had their water tight doors closed. If they had been closed it should have made it to port.
But to venture out into the Black sea with water tight doors OPEN, or CIWS not armed seems really far fetched - Keystone Cop-ish in fact.
It seems entirely plausible that Russian sailors would be as inept as Russian soldiers.
The stories I've read say the Moskva was hit by two Neptune missiles. There is no mention of how many Neptunes were fired. It's possible that the Ukrainians just fired enough missiles to saturate Moskva's defences.
It would be worth it to sacrifice additional Neptunes for a kill like Moskva. Another theory I’ve read is that the Black Sea was choppy at the time, and radar returns from wave crests obscured the Neptunes.
You are definitely correct on the impact on Russia’s capacity for an amphibious operation. The Moskva had the best defenses against air and missile attacks of the Black Sea Fleet; it would have been relied on for air defense in any landing attempt. Turkey isn’t allowing ‘any belligerent’s warships’ through the Bosporus, so the ship and its capabilities will not be replaced. Turkey’s restriction only affects Russia, of course; Ukraine has no warships elsewhere.
The intersection of corruption, greed, and incompetence is the Russian Military. And where logic goes to die.
Russia is being entirely consistent. They ALWAYS have two conflicting messages, one for their own population and supporters abroad, another for Ukrainians and their supporters.
In this case, for the first: "there was an accidental fire".
For the second: "don't touch our warships again".
Russia really seems to take it personally when a country they've invaded decides to fight back,
Completely ordinary social conservative reaction in almost all circumstances, not just actual war.
Shades of 1904/05. Is the English Herring fleet anywhere near ? Japanese torpedo boats ? The epic Russian naval failure back then was when the Baltic fleet set out to head to the Pacific and was steaming into the North Sea. There had been rumours that there were Japanese torpedo boats in Danish waters(!). the fleet opened fire on English herring boats, sinking at least one and damaging others. Nearly started a war with Great Britain. Sounds like the descendants of Admiral Rozhestvensky are still in command.
Not to mention the most famous of all Russian naval vessels, the battleship Potemkin. Here, in the Black Sea, off Odessa; history not repeating itself, but rhyming.
Russian state controlled news agency RIA Novosti published an article April 4 by Timofej Sergejtsev a political ideologist close to Putin.
The article equals all Ukrainians to Nazis claiming they have to be rooted out in order protect Russia and the Russian minority living in Ukraine.
The article openly advocated ethnic cleansing and genocide. The plan is to split up Ukraine into a part engulfed by Russia cleansed from Ukrainians and a western part left to Ukrainians but “pacified” and controlled by Russia
An article like this isn’t published in Russia if it isn’t approved by Putin
You really need to read this one in order to understand what Ukrainians are up against. This narrative is approved by the majority in Russia
https://medium.com/@kravchenko_mm/what-should-russia-do-with-ukraine-translation-of-a-propaganda-article-by-a-russian-journalist-a3e92e3cb64
Yes, frightening article. Two counter-points.
Russia may want to behave like Hitler did in the 1930s, but their military is no Wehrmacht, as has been amply shown. The Russian military has never been a Wehrmacht, and their only victories have been defensive, relying on the huge size of their landmass.
I don't know, and I doubt whether any do, that a majority of Russians support the party line. While outwardly silent, many are not stupid and who knows what they really think? Even if so, as the war drags on, the number who support the "special military operation" will almost certainly diminish.
The Western doctrine of "containment" would seem to have been given a new life.
I've said before that Putin is more of a Mussolini than a Hitler. Imperial pretensions, but relying on an army that is poorly equipped, poorly led, poorly trained, and generally unwilling to fight.
I can't be the only one who is noticing the irony that while the Russians are accusing Ukraine of being Nazis, their behavior in so many ways is the most reminiscent of how Nazis behaved in my lifetime... and I am pretty old.
As I've had to periodically remind people in various comment sections over the years, Nazis weren't evil because they wore black leather dusters and spoke German. They were evil because they were cruel, totalitarian, genocidal fascists. Putin and Russia have become, for all practical purposes, the Nazis.
(Obligatory sketch link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JOpPNra4bw)
That doesn't work. Nazis were obsessed with the classical Germanic tribes archetypal person(which was the merging of Celtic/Balto-Slavic tribes in the bronze age). Putin is trying to exterminate all the Germanic descendants in the Ukraine. His methods are no different than Soviet industrialized 5 year plans in 1929-38 when they stole Nonrussian food.
Like most libtards, your out of touch.
So, Putin's goals may differ from Hitler's in the details of who he is killing, but Putin's methods of extermination are no different. "They were (both) evil because they were cruel, totalitarian, genocidal fascists." That is the point that jte21 is making.
And it is correct.
Please don't feed the racist, anti-semitic semi-literate troll.
Morons like you who reject history, become history.
I'll talk to whomever I want to.
Yes, Spades is racist. Doesn't mean that all of his statements (whenever I can understand them) are always wrong.
"Don't feed the troll" is such a juvenile attempt at stifling communication. You don't have to read either him or me if you don't want to.
Feeding racist, anti-semitic trolls who leave their droppings to pollute the threads is such a juvenile attempt at defending pernicious behavior. Grow up.
If NATO just went all in with air power, naval forces, and troops, Russia could be ejected from Ukraine. Heck, they might just get kicked out anyway! Let’s go all in. Yes I know, you cowards are afraid the Russian military will launch ICBM. Well sooner or later the Russians will decide that all that equipment heading to Ukraine is fair game and then it will be on anyway. I guess you are waiting for that. The Russians sent a letter warning that they will attack supply lines. So there you go.
We are at war with Russia. We can either beat them or we can hope Ukrainians do it for us. I say go all in. Teach those orthodox Christian mother fuckers a lesson.
I’m just not afraid of ICBM destroying NYC and Washington DC. It’s not going to happen. Don’t be a coward. So sorry if your vacation plans are affected. Good grief.
Once again, I'm just glad that you aren't President, or have any power at all to further your desired actions.
Call me a coward. I may be, but I know that I am pleased to be alive, and I look forward to a few more years of being alive. I also look forward to young people today having as much of a chance at life that I had.
Idiot.
Idiot.
Biden / NATO are sending military equipment and this is, sooner or later, going to elicit a response. If you think the Russians will be content with a stalemate you condemn thousands to their deaths. If you think any further escalation will be doomsday, you condemn thousands to their deaths. If you imagine there is some way this ends well while sending all that equipment to kill Russians and sink Russian ships then I’d be interested in hearing that scenario. Instead all you have is name calling.
If you fear ICBM then you should start digging out a bomb shelter and stocking up because the only way this ends is with that nuclear exchange you fear so much. You need to start telling NATO and the Ukrainians to surrender lest the provoke that ICBM attack.
Idiot.
Idiot. We’ve already provoked the Russians.
Stung by war losses including a Black Sea naval flagship bristling with missiles, Russia has warned the Biden administration to stop supplying advanced weapons to Ukrainian forces or face “unpredictable consequences,” American military officials said Friday.
The Russian warnings, punctuated by a formal protest note delivered this week, were disclosed as the Kremlin’s military was massing troops and pouring armaments into eastern Ukraine for what is expected to be the next big offensive in its two-month-old invasion of the country.
Idiot. Should’ve just told Ukraine to surrender. Then your pathetic excuse for a human being could live happily ever after.
Coward.
I wonder, do you live in a large coastal city like NY or DC that are certainly first strike targets of a nuclear attack? I don't think so.
But then again, maybe you do and just have a well-developed death wish. I don't think you're an idiot. I also don't think you're worried about losing your life at the hands of a Russian nuclear bomb. I don't suppose there are many people around who agree with you.
I’m glad neither Justin nor TFG have access to the football, but Justin poses, well, he implies, a question that deserves a serious answer, and that is, “if you think Putin is nuts enough to order a nuclear first strike, how can we possibly know where that nut’s threshold is? His being a nut makes it difficult to impossible to predict how he might react to any action of ours, doesn’t it?”
I’m also glad I don’t have responsibilities in this matter. And your rephrase of my question is spot on. Those who fear ICBM raining down on us really ought to be advocating for Ukraine to surrender and for NATO to stop sending weapons. This is an equally dangerous game they are playing even if they aren’t willing to admit it.
Don’t feed this amoral, nihilistic troll either. Justin feels perfectly safe in his mom’s basement, and is completely ok with everyone killing everyone else. Just ignore his ignorant repugnant ass.
Yes, on previous occasions Justin has expressed his misanthropic view that humanity deserves to be annihilated. So no wonder he is so blase about provoking a nuclear war.
This idiot is going to spout his idiotic ramblings whether or not anyone "feeds" him. You ignore him. I choose to call him what he is, a misanthropic idiot.
Turkey's downing of a Russian fighter jet in Syria nudged Russia to send the Moskva to Syria to protect the airspace -- https://bityl.co/Bo62 -- its jets were operating in, back in 2015, by virtue of its S-300F -- https://bityl.co/Bo66.
The loss of Moskva meant their other ships were wide open to newly acquired British Harpoon anti-ship missiles -- https://twtr.in/3Iqj -- in addition to the obvious Ukrainian Neptune, even if they still had radar to protect them against fighter jets. This is probably why they hauled ass out of there, although it's not clear that they're far enough out of range of the Harpoons and Neptunes.
Apparently, this wasn't the first time a Neptune had hit one of the Russian ships -- https://twtr.in/3Iqh -- which could imply that Ukrainian Naval Forces learned a lot from that first strike, just a little over a week before it successfully sank the Moskva.
Slava Ukraini
Some but not all of the frigates of the Black Sea Fleet have CIWS which are supposed to defend against antiship missiles, but the frigates have only two mounts, Moskva had six, and still was hit. The Russians must be frantic to figure out how the Neptunes hit their flagship, and that will be difficult when she lies at the bottom of the sea.
In this case, it may not be the number of mounts that matters; the Moskva and its complement of ships apparently failed to detect. You can't shoot that which you can't see. If none of the automated CIWS could see the Neptune missiles, it wouldn't matter if there were 20 of them or just 1.
This greatly complicates Putin's goal of any landing at Odessa and to block Ukraine from access to the Black Sea, especially now that the Black Sea Fleet no longer has an S-300F to protect its landing ships.
Oh, I just saw that Oryx made the point in a posting (https://bityl.co/Bold):
If not for the safety of the multiple S-400 installations in Sevastopol and the Black Sea Fleet's dash to an area near Sevastopol, the Black Sea Fleet would be wide open to being obliterated, eh?
I wonder, do you live in a large coastal city like NY or DC that are certainly first strike targets of a nuclear attack? I don't think so.
But then again, maybe you do and just have a well-developed death wish. I don't think you're an idiot. I also don't think you're worried about losing your life at the hands of a Russian nuclear bomb. I don't suppose there are many people around who agree with you.
I have no death wish for me or anyone else. I simply judge that this alleged risk of Russian ICBM raining down on us is zero. It’s not going to happen even if the US / NATO flooded Ukraine with troops. I acknowledge your fears and the good news for you is that NATO has already indicated they won’t send troops. I guess time will tell if that works. For my money, I support far more aggressive action.
“It is the Ukrainians, to the amazement and not inconsiderable embarrassment of the West, who are enacting a drama of national resistance unto death.”
I’m forced to wonder if you all wouldn’t have preferred they lost quickly and surrendered rather than fight. Then you wouldn’t need to fear those ICBM. Perhaps you all are unwilling to admit that. But that’s what it sounds like to me.
Commenter above said I had great contempt for humanity. this war in Ukraine and the response to it validates my contempt. There is little reason to be optimistic about the future.
Good luck.
I tend toward optimism, sometimes grounded in cynicism. A couple of weeks ago Mitch Guthman did a game-theory analysis for the commanders ordered to launch a nuclear strike by Putin that was pretty convincing - their choices are: 1) obey the order knowing that everyone they ever cared about will be incinerated in a nuclear exchange; 2) refuse, and be killed along with their families by Putin’s agents; 3) have Putin arrested and or killed by their own loyal henchmen. Choice 3 offers the best chance of living - either the perp(s) take power, or whoever does owes them for clearing the way … So I agree with you that a nuclear war is unlikely even if Putin is nuts, or terminally ill, or both.
Why doesn't someone responding to the Russian comment that the ship caught fire, an obvious lie, ask if the Russian ship ran out of water?
Ships can catch fire which results in catastrophic loss due to accidents, crew error, poor maintenance, and sabotage, coupled with ineffective damage control. I guess getting hit by two 300lb warheads, especially if they hit those huge missile tubes on deck filled with fuel and high explosives could also cause a big problem. Couldn't have happened to nicer bunch of guys.
The Russian navy has wisely withdrawn the rest of its naval assets to a greater distance from Odesa, to avoid the risk of any more spontaneous combustion.
So in the end Russia did take the advice of the Snake Island defenders.
GENEVA — As Russia gears up for a military offensive in eastern and southern Ukraine, the United Nations warned on Saturday that closures of ports on the Black Sea could trigger a global food catastrophe that yields starvation, mass migration and political instability.
Those selfish Ukrainians should just surrender. They are going to make the Russians starve millions to death. Oh well… there isn’t anything we can do about it.
More on Russian exceptionalism, conservative mental disability,
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/12/putins-thousand-year-war/#_
Well, it says this was produced by Tucker Carlson,
https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1515378014569259019
It is worth mentioning how ludicrous the US's new military buildup is in response to the Russian "threat". The Moskva was one of 3 Russian guided missile cruisers. The US Navy has 21 Ticonderoga class cruisers in active service. If you lump in all of the Russian navy's destroyers and frigates they have roughly 20 ships. The US Navy has 69 Arleigh Burke class guided missile destroyers (roughly equivalent to the Moskva) in service now with 12 more on order and 7 being built. That's why we need China's naval build up so desperately; without them there wasn't any justification to keep the money flowing to defense instead of, say, preparing for pandemics.
The US could redirect some of its military budget to a reserve for waging economic war. Just as we gave out economic-impact payments to compensate individuals and businesses for losses due to the pandemic, there’s no reason we couldn’t ameliorate the impact of sanctions by government payments. We’ve always found ways to pay for wars; we can sell Economic-War Bonds if it comes to that. Only I would limit the payouts to individuals only, to compensate for higher food and energy prices - anybody who invested in Russia after Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, Crimea, Donbas will just have to live with the consequences of their poor judgment.
Russia's new Aztec death cannon,
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1515425115315613697