Apparently the Oval Office meeting this morning to sign a US-Ukraine mineral agreement didn't go well:
President Trump and Vice President JD Vance loudly berated President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine on Friday in an explosive televised shouting match unlike any seen in the Oval Office between an American president and foreign leader in modern times.
Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance...sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Mr. Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Mr. Zelensky did not go along.
Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Mr. Vance...demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership... Minutes later, Mr. Trump seemed to call off the rest of the visit. “I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations,” he wrote on social media. “I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.”
Trump just can't decide whether he likes Zelensky or not. One minute he's a dictator, the next minute he isn't. One minute he's offering a great deal that could be worth a trillion dollars, the next he's an ingrate who doesn't thank Trump enough.
Of course, this kind of shouting is also a possible sign of mental deterioration. It's a pretty common symptom of dementia and Alzheimer's.
POSTSCRIPT: There remains an open question of whether this was a genuine loss of temper or a carefully planned bit of humiliation. The presence of Vance suggests it was planned, since there was no special reason for him to be there.
I gotta say, if this was planned it demonstrates Trump's genuine sense of revenge against Zelensky, carried out coldly and when Zelensky least expected it. As a result, Trump is fully Putin's man now, simply because there are only two sides.
……..”Day1”………..
and a thousand years.
Trump could have been in possession of his full faculties, and the result would have been the same. This was only ever going to be a humiliation game for the TV public -- Trump even admitted this afterwards! The only "sign" to be derived is that he is there to do Putin's bidding. The same goes for Vance, who certainly isn't suffering from dementia -- only faschistia.
I’m hearing Russian media was in the room. And Vance doesn’t have dementia. It was staged.
1000%
Zelenskyy is a former comedian/actor. It is possible that he agreed to stage this display of Trump dominance as a condition for US support.
Well, he agreed to be there, and got off some great flat lines.
But mostly he's there with his hand out for his country, and he knows that Trump is like the terrible franchise owner who waltzes in, acts like they know everything, and can't tell the difference between a white onion and a green onion yet thinks they should get to change the recipes because of it. You just let them rant.
This sounds pretty ridiculous, because it is.
I can totally see everyone knowing the game is to make Trump look strong and commanding and then he rolls over later. Russian media was there to make sure Putin saw the show.
At least Europe now fully gets that the US is no longer an ally and they need to assume we will not rise for any assistance. They need to ramp up their own military and trade. Vance and the tech-bros are intent on making the US into a self contained island.
People shouting when they discuss something is not that rare, but diplomatic negotiations normally are done behind closed doors. What is special about this is that it happened in public.
Does it look intentional?
Cannot be bothered to actually watch it myself.
Edited: apparently Dave thinks so.
At least now Zelensky and Ukraine know for sure that the US is out as a supporter and as the key party to help negotiate a peace deal with Russia. Europe had better pony up with more money, arms, and eventually troops to secure an agreement. Why the hell would they even think of a minerals agreement with that Orange piece of shit and his bearded VP lapdog, "Jr Dickhead" Vance.
Champagne and caviar will flow tonight in Moscow as Putin celebrates his success in developing and directing the most valuable KGB/FSB operative of all time.
If Putin has any sense at all, he will recognize that this is not a positive development. The European countries, which collectively have more money than the US and enormously more than Russia, are going to continue supporting Ukraine. They are ramping up their military budgets and their munitions production capabilities and don't need the US.
Given the history of the first half of the twentieth century, the prospect of a rearmed and assertive Germany should send shivers down the spine of any Russian with even the slightest knowledge of that history. The panzer divisions may roll again.
All of which is another stupid, stupid own goal for the US courtesy of Trump.
A bit part of the reason why we've enjoyed eight decades of enormously friendly relationships with Europe is because military conflict was completely off the table by dint of the ridiculously asymmetric milltary strength of the US vis a vis Europe. But thanks to Trump, we're going to see a multipolar world with a multiplying number of midlevel military powers.
Russia should be afraid of a rearmed and assertive Germany, but a world with a rearmed and assertive Germany, France, Italy, England, Poland, etc. (many of whom will seek to acquire or expand nuclear arsenals) is a big loss for us.
"own goal for the US courtesy of Trump. "
That assumes that Trump is a player in team US. Obviously he isn't, and not trying to be.
Our “team” doesn’t care. They’re planning on autarky. They don’t want friends or allies.
Not Panzers!!
Drones will fly.
Good for Zelensky. In a world with few heroes, he is surely one of them.
The US has abandoned our ally, Ukraine, as a favor for our adversary, Putin. So shameful. While the US is the economic and military power behind the Western Alliance, Europe w/o America still dwarfs Russia in economic strength, and military strength if they want it. I hope Europe finds a way to help Ukraine survive and ultimately prevail.
Note: Ukraine does not enjoy protections that a NATO member would, but the US (and others, inc. Russia!) did commit support for Ukraine's security under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum in exchange for Ukraine's giving up nukes. I don't know why we don't hear more about that agreement and our obligations.
We don't hear about the 1994 Budapest Memo for the same reason why we don't get context for anything anymore in the news: it requires our journalists to spend time researching and learning stuff, time they could be spending primping to look good for the camera and fluffing their anonymous sources for more scoops that are really just PR for the sources, and it's also boring and the media can't risk viewers changing the channel / surfing to some other site while the context is presented.
I don't think that the memo was a formal treaty--not that Trump would care.
Never said it was but context here would still be nice. Ukraine gave up its nukes and now will likely fall to Russia because they didn’t keep their nukes. So when Americans in, say, 2035 look up from the latest episode of Ow My Balls and see 90+ countries around the world with nukes pointed at each other, it would be nice if the context had been presented in 2025 that all the countries of the world learned to get nukes right away after seeing Ukraine left behind by the US.
+1
Presumably Zelensky knows that it will not give him much with Trump, and he tries to appease Trump.
But the media and Democrats (and Republicans) don't have such an excuse.
American journalists, and Americans generally, simply don't care about the national honor. How many times have you ever heard any prominent American from either party say words to the effect that "we have to do (or not do) that because we have a treaty obligation"? To the best of my recollection, the answer is "zero".
Tariffs on Canada and Mexico are a glaring example. NAFTA, and its amendment package USMCA, forbid any such thing, but no American is heard to say that "we can't tariff Canada and Mexico; we have a treaty".
I've heard plenty of Americans saying these things. Then again, I'm deep in the Librul Swamp.
+1
The phrase was "prominent American". I follow lots of different news/opinion media, and I cannot recall even one pundit or politician making reference to treaty obligations as actual obligations. I don't doubt that there are lots of individuals of no particular influence saying these things, but they're just not part of the national conversation.
Ukraine does not enjoy protections that a NATO member would, but the US (and others, inc. Russia!) did commit support for Ukraine's security under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum.
I'm as pro-Ukraine as anyone, but this is not true. We don't hear more about the Budapest Memorandum, because it isn't relevant to United States actions. You can read the text of the Budapest Memorandum here:
https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/Part/volume-3007-I-52241.pdf
It doesn't commit the signees to any form of positive action to protect Ukraine. It is simply a declaration that Russia, the US, and the UK will respect Ukrainian sovereignty. Russia is very clearly in violation, but that doesn't obligate the other signees to do anything.
The US is obligated to support Ukraine's defense because it is the only moral thing to do. It has nothing to do with any previously signed agreements.
Noted, you linked to it, but then are using misleading terms to describe it.
The post prior to yours, sad donkey, was more correct: It doesn't promise we will protect it like our treaty obligation to NATO.
This memo is used for the reason why Russia had to invade Ukraine.
What an asshole you are, sad donkey.
I'm sorry, but when Austin said, ". . . but the US (and others, inc. Russia!) did commit support for Ukraine's security under the 1994 Budapest Memorandum," he is categorically wrong. The US made no such commitment. What Russia used it for is 100% irrelevant to the claim that was made.
What an asshole you are, sad donkey.
Yeah, actually having read the memorandum in question is a total dick move.
So many days that will live in infamy.
Today was the day Donald Trump finally became president.
What exactly do you mean?
It’s snark based on something Van Jones said on CNN during Trump’s first term.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/03/01/politics/van-jones-trump-congress-speech-became-the-president-in-that-moment-cnntv
Thanks.
It was pre-planned kayfabe. They ambushed him.
Even if it weren't obvious, Vance clearly had specific phrases he was looking for places to spout. And he's really bad at it.
That was the most pathetically weak display of raw insecurity I've ever seen from an elected official.
They're both just such losers. What a fucking country.
+1
It looked like a stunt one does during a debate.
+10
Yep, clearly sandbagged, a tag-team set-up. Or, for another sporting analogy, shitheel Vance was playing picador.
They're both lower than whale shit.
Absolutely. I didn't even have to watch the video, only read about how Vance was acting, to know exactly how it went down.
You don't need dementia and Alzheimer's to be a huge giant asshole.
+100
"Putin went through a hell of a lot with me." - our POS president
Yeah, that was the “tell” that the thing was staged. What a sorry spectacle.
Or when he said, "This is going to make great television."
Bingo.
Alzheimer's? More like a Personality Disorder - but I'm no shrink so it's just an armchair observation. Or Trump, Vance and Musk could simply be the assclown trio of the century. The only people who benefit from this train wreck are late night talk show comedians and attorneys. As the young people say, "this is so cringe". The world is watching, and we have egg on our face - wait there are no affordable eggs so it's something else LOL
To your postscript: I'm pretty sure Zelenskyy knew this was a possibility and was prepared for it. He sure acted that way.
In a way, as disgusting and embarrassing as this whole farce was, it should serve as a clarifying moment for all countries of the world.
As I posted upthread, Zelenskyy is a former comedian/actor. It is possible that he agreed to stage this display of Trump dominance as a condition for US support. Stay tuned.
I suppose anything is possible, but this is pretty unlikely. How does playing along with Trump yelling at Zelinsky advance anybody's interests?
It was Trump dominance kayfabe. Trump said afterwards that it would make great television.
Trump gets his yayas pitting people against each other to create drama. This was staged for more than one audience: Putin because Trump secretly thinks he’s better and wants to show off, Trump’s fan base because they lap this stuff up, and liberal outrage just for yukks.
This was all Trump and Vance. They thought they could intimidate Zelensky into agreeing to a bad deal. Too bad he wasn't as compliant as they thought he should be.
Or, as an actor who's done stage work (and I think some improv), he recognized it right away for what it was and played the role he had to, for his country's sake.
I'd really, really want to reserve judgment on whether he might have agreed to it beforehand. If, as I expect, he doesn't get a "fantastic deal" later on from trump, there'll be zero doubt he was sandbagged today. I'm 99-44/100ths percent there now.
Thing to remember is that trump has absolutely no problem playing the heel in any kayfabe-- it's what he did throughout the campaign. All he cares about there is that it captures people's attention and makes them emotional. It's a form of the dominance he lives for.
I think Trump and Vance are playing two very different games. Vance may have been an unexpected participant.
I think you're right about trump and Vance having different aims-- trump is just out for himself and feels like the USA is just part of himself, where Vance aligns with the Thiel/Yarvin/Vermeule absolutism project that's using trump while they can.
So they could both have wanted to blow up this deal for different reasons and still have cooperated on it, which I'm thinking is more likely than the chance that Vance managed to trigger trump out of the blue. I didn't watch the whole painful thing but in the snips I saw, trump was talking over Zelensky quite a bit, yet he never interrupted Vance or talked over him, even when Vance cut in over him. If trump really wanted the minerals contract, wouldn't he have shushed Vance? So I'm strongly inclined to think they planned it this way. I also recognize that Vance could have been using tactics that he'd seen set trump off in private meetings, which apparently happens a lot, and see that as a possibility. Based on trump's reaction as it wound up, and his constant awareness of an outside audience, I'm not ready to say he was goaded into it without being in on it.
I want to say bravo sierra, but in today's world I cannot, in good faith. I had not even conceived of such a possibility. I will keep this thought in mind.
But I will agree that it was planned as TASS was in the room.
He's a psychopath. Google it and weep for America. Vance is also on the personality disorder spectrum. And Republican Party milquetoasts watch appalled but too timid (they like their govt. benefits) to oppose his deranged behavior.
He is incapable of reasoning and/or compromise.
Vance was there because all bullies have their toadie. This was exactly the same dynamic that was in play in A Christmas story, with Trump playing Scott Farkus, and Vance playing Grover Dill. Assholes like Trump and Vance have been with us since the beginning of time, and have always behaved in this exact manner.
I thought the bully's name was Scut Farkus.
Anyway, nice comparison.
But Zelenskyy had to show up, if for no other reason then to show everyone who Trump is.
Putin's pu****.
Vance being there is a tell, also him saying that Ukraine is ungrateful is obviously meant to drive the confrontation. Not sure what Zelinsky could have done in this type of situation.
Not sure why Zelinsky should be grateful to Trump for all the aid provided under Biden.
Well, now we know Vance's job is to ensure that people kiss enough ass to be in the room.
Zelinsky should have thanked Biden by name for all the aid.
At the beginning Trump just sat there looking bored as he usually does. Overall what a disgraceful display of arrogance and vanity. I don't know which was worse, Trump flipping out about being told how to feel or Vance being the shameless toadie he is insisting that Trump be thanked for his awesome leadership. It was probably staged to use it as an excuse as to why we eventually abandon Ukraine. I feel embarrassed for this country.
Am I the only one in the world who thinks his posture in these scenes is exactly that of somebody taking a dump? He always looks like that to me.
I have always found the “does Trump have dementia?” Discourse to be entirely ungrounded.
But this is now the second or third time Trump has shouted like this on camera, clearly losing his cool in a way I don’t really remember him doing, other than during debates.
He seemed to really be offended by that one comment about how we'll feel. It was a very odd reaction to a seemingly harmless remark. It just proves how insecure our president is.
He seemed to latch onto that, and maybe (but who the fuck knows or cares what goes on in the little rat's nest of a brain he has?) couldn't grasp that Zelinsky was alluding to the fact that, yes, while the US is far away from conflict in Europe eventually the US will feel the impact of aggression from Russia if it isn't checked, and instead thought that Zelinksy/Ukraine was threatening him.
Inappropriate anger is an early sign of dementia.
It’s a TV show and he’s playing to the camera. He’s always cognizant of where the audience is.
I prefer to go with "cognitive decline." Unlike "dementia," CD is not speculative, it's certain (because brain function in homo sapiens peaks no later than 40). The question is to what degree. I don't think the Donald Trump of 1995 would have pitched redeveloping Gaza into a beach resort, or inquired about using nuclear weapons on hurricanes, or mused about invading Greenland. The outlandishly comic-book stuff—and yes, his increasingly glaring proclivity for emotional outbursts—are telling.
Trump isn't drooling into this diet coke. And certainly he seems fine in limited situations. And when he speaks in public there appears to be a kind of brain muscle-memory in terms of the talking points and bromides he employs.
But if you look at the overall contours of his cognitive profile as evidenced by his the total sum of evidence, he's clearly in significant decline. He was always an ahole, but nonethless the Trump of the 80s ad 90s often seems an urbane, erudite, cosmopolitan figure able to mix it up with the likes of David Letterman or whomever. Now he often sounds like the angry guy down at the VFW working on his third boilermaker.
↑↑↑
I watched a video clip, and Trump sounded a lot like the character he played on The Apprentice. I expect his base to love it. I didn’t see any signs of dementia, but I also didn’t seen any signs that Trump was trying to advance American interests, or in fact to do anything but play to his base.
Who wrote the script for him?
He probably had some talking points but most likely forgot them. He kept repeating himself. I just finished watching it and it got so much worse towards the end. We have tweetle dumbfuck and tweedle suckup completely making asses of themselves on the world stage in an effort to strong arm an ally and kiss up to an adversary. Boy are we fucked.
From my own humble vantage point, it seemed to me that Trump at one point forgot Zelensky's name. There was a bit of a mental backfire and then Trump said 'him' instead. Just my own personal opinion.
I think you're right. But I think he was also trying to impress Putin as well. Trump as the strong man. In reality he looked weak, like every bully that ever existed.
"I also didn’t seen any signs that Trump was trying to advance American interests"
Trump never tried to advance American interests, and never will.
What you wrote suggests the possibility that he sometimes does, and in this sense it is misleading.
"What you wrote suggests the possibility that he sometimes does"
No, what they wrote suggests the possibility that sometimes at least we should evaluate the president of the US perhaps on how well and whether they advance American interests.
Dear Ukraine,
He's unstable. It might not be obvious right now, but he just gave Russia a green light to do anything including using chemical weapons. He's going to shut off weapons and support. He might even direct Boeing to shut off support for those F-16s.
They've set up a trap to get Zelensky to quit. If you're going to go down that road, you'll need to put General Valerii Zaluzhnyi in position to replace him. But know that it does not matter who you replace Zelensky with, Trump was always meaning to sell you out. But at least Zaluzhnyi already has the respect of European leaders and those relationships don't need rebuilding.
Do what you must to win.
Listen to Ryan McBeth.
Trump is arbitrary and capricious. He will force Boeing to cut off all support for your F-16s. He's broken the very trade deal he signed with Mexico and Canada. You cannot rely on the US and American equipment and arms. You cannot rely on Starlink. Either Musk or Trump could arbitrarily cut you off, just because.
I strongly urge you to ASAP build an arsenal of dirty bombs for use with drones (but don't tell anyone). You are going to be in a desperate hour very soon and you will need leverage to get to the negotiating table to freeze the conflict and let Europe scale up its military manufacturing industry while you develop a proper nuclear weapons program.
If the age of conquest and colonialism is back, everyone is going to need nukes to stop predators at the border because US's role in NATO is moot.
Personally, I think "his lowness" and Vance just showed how dumb hey really are, to the whole world. Now everyone knows we are run by adolescent idiots, including Mr Doge. It's pathetic but now it's out. The convicted felon is no one's friend but Puty and China. We are in for a real ride with these two.
The bit where Vance complains that Zelinsky supported "the opposition" in the election is something of a tell. 'Cuz yeah, Vance, that's the important thing. Not the territory seized, the towns destroyed, the millions displaced, the hundreds of thousands wounded, and the tens of thousands killed; nor even (more crassly) the billions of dollars in aid or the (apparently, in Trump's fevered imagination) hundreds of billions of bloodmoney in delicious minerals: the really important thing is that Zelinsky might have preferred Harris.
This whole sick crew is so aggrieved and prissy and petty (on top of being awful in other respects, of course), it's nauseating.
Where the heck was our Secretary of State in all this? Rubio might as well hand is his resignation now.
Right next to Vance, trying to sink through the couch cushions.
JD interceding seemed to be the signal, but I don't think Trump's handlers thought he was going to go full Neville Chamberlain, or "Putin is a victim of the witch hunt too".
It would be great if this were kayfabe and secretly Zelensky and Trump agreed on security guarantees for Ukraine, but that's giving Dementia Donny too much credit. Still, something was a bit sus about Zelenksky taking Trump and Vance's bait. It came across as scripted.
It's starting to become more evident that some of those around Trump, close in his orbit, including JD, and probably guys like Musk and Rufo, think he's an idiot, and are all just maximizing their own agendas because the old man is easy to fool.
Meanwhile, if I didn't know better, would be thinking Trump already preparing and introducing his post-presidency senility (cognitive issues) defense, less about today then his not remembering calling Zelensky a dictator just last week.
I totally agree. Trump gets to look important, preen in front of the cameras, take revenge on every one who wronged him while the Christian Nationalists impose religious law and the tech oligarchy privatizes government. Everyone on their team wins…except those running for reelection in 2026-2028.
100%
Also, it's hard not to notice that Trump now appears to strongly prefer to have a younger, brain-healthy wingman with him in high stakes situations. Vance on this occasion, Musk last week.
The disgraceful scene had echoes of the Hitler gang hectoring Czech President Hacha to sign away his country in 1939. Zelenskyy is made of sterner stuff.
Trump seems to think he's goading the rest of NATO into being better-armed American client states. He's mistaken. He's forcing Europe to become a military rival instead of a partner. It's completely contrary to the interests of his own country but he won't live long enough to grasp the consequences.
Merz in Germany certainly agrees with you. The ink wasn't even dry on his election win when he said trump's attitude shows that Europeans need to achieve their independence from us in a hurry. And that was last weekend, well before this shitshow. He doesn't seem like a guy much given to idle musing in public.
Which currency do you think they will use as the reserve?
That’s probably the hardest piece to unravel.