Sen. Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) last week made the White House a concrete counteroffer for its spending bill, saying he would accept a $1.8 trillion package that included universal prekindergarten for 10 years, an expansion of Obamacare, and hundreds of billions of dollars to combat climate change, three people familiar with the matter said.
But Manchin’s counteroffer excluded an extension of the expanded Child Tax Credit the administration has seen as a cornerstone of President Biden’s economic legacy, the people said, an omission difficult for the White House to accept in the high-stakes negotiations.
If this is true, I would have taken Manchin's offer. The expanded CTC with no work requirement was always going to be a heavy lift, and I don't entirely understand why Biden was so attached to it. Oh well.
UPDATE: Sorry, I was in a hurry and wrote a bad headline. All I meant was that Biden didn't accept Manchin's offer at the time Manchin made it. However, the White House didn't "reject" the Manchin plan, as I said in the original headline. It was just considering how to respond. Obviously something happened over the next 24 hours to piss off Manchin—maybe some kind of staff communication?—but we don't know for sure what that was.
This reporting definitely clarifies some things. People were wondering why Biden wouldn't have just accepted a $1.8 trillion dollar program that funds CTC for 10 years, includes climate + ACA subsidies but cuts down all the other programs to 0.
Well, it turns out it's because Manchin included Pre-K instead of CTC in his offer! I dunno, I'd still take the deal but this kinda sucks. CTC > Pre-K for sure.
It didn't have the votes as the deal lost Sanders vote.
It cut 200 billion from climate programs. The child tax credit is just a red herring.
I am very much of the school that something, including the Manchin 'offer', is better politically and practically than nothing. IF this report is accurate, I think Biden made a huge mistake.
"...I don't entirely understand why Biden was so attached to it."
Because it lifted millions of children out of poverty, that's why.
Not really.
Conventional Wisdom reporters follow these rules:
If a proposal needs a vote or two from corrupt "conservatives" to protect rich people and make the bill worse, the message is always, "take the deal, don't be a foolish."
If a proposal needs a vote or two from progressives who are working to ease poverty or feed & house children, the message is always "the left is out of control they are killing the party!"
No doubt that Biden rejected Manchin's (alleged) proposal because it didn't have the votes. But don't expect Conventional Wisdom reporters to say that.
"Dems in Disarray"!!! The story that just keeps selling newspapers, getting clicks, etc. etc. Whatever happens, use that headline!
Who knows?
I mean, really.
The Dem coalition is just that, and all the parts of the coalition fully believe that they are entitled to their say. Its not like the Repubs, who require you to just sign on for the five things you will vote for, and call it a day.
I mean, 2021 and 2022 are like a two year vacation for Repubs, no actual need to negotiate anything, just lob in whatever tweets you like.
I mean, the Dems cannot even get behind reversing the TRUMP elimination of the State and Local Tax (SALT) deduction for CA, and NY and wherever else.
I mean, raise taxes if you want. Raise taxes on those earning enough to have more than a 10k salt deduction.
By raise them on high earning clowns in Oklahoma, Mississippi and Texas as well!!!!
I could not believe Trump had the balls to even propose that, let alone pass it, as the only people it raised taxes on were in Blue States!!
Of course, in some corners of the liberal media the reversal of that was actually spun as a tax cut for the rich.
It was raised more than blue states boy. Try harder
I could not believe Trump had the balls to even propose that, let alone pass it, as the only people it raised taxes on were in Blue States!!
Huh? This is like the Republican ideal of a tax increase.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
If perfection is out of reach, fuckit! We don't want any of those halfway measures we might actually be able to pass.
If this is true (Unfortunately in todays press world we can't be sure) then yeah, I would have taken the deal.
Not because any ONE part of the deal is more important than any other but in order to show folks that DEMs could get things done. The CTC was not a budget buster by any stretch of the imagination.
I also would’ve taken the deal. But if I was Chuck Schumer I’d replace the senate parliamentarian immediately and then, on the day Biden signs the BBB into law, I’d send the child care credit and the environment stuff right to the senate floor and force a vote.
It's simple.
The BBB that Manchin was still pretending to consider after round and round of revisions requested by him was already a watered down version from what everyone else in the party originally wanted, but then this prick still wanted more, and would have kept demanding more every time they gave him something, since that is what had happened until now. At some point you have to tell the terrorist holding everyone hostage to go F himself since it is obvious he was never dealing in good faith, especially if by acquiescing to those demands means losing the support of everyone else who had already compromised things they wanted just to please him.
No, Manchin wanted Biden to publicly support his plan for when it got shot down. Maybe he should have.
If true, the WH response yesterday was over the top and pretty moronic.
Not is over the top, moronic, silly and inherently contradictory as Manchin's response to the response.
Hm.
Okay, get a stand-alone child tax credit bill out there and let Manchin vote against it, then see if his counteroffer on BBB can pass. If it does, then you get something you wanted, except for the CTC, but at least the CTC failure will be on the head of Republicans plus Manchin.
I'm just dreaming like everybody else, of course.
Plausible, but it's impossible to get ANY bill "out there", thanks to Senator Phillip A. Buster.
Unless it's a "reconciliation" bill that the parliamentarian likes, and you only get to do it one time. (Damn the Senate!!)
That’s the fundamental difference between Chuck Schumer and his predecessors. Anyone else would have fired the parliamentarian on day one and installed a better one. The man’s timidity is really remarkable.
Mitch Guthman - respectfully, firing the Parliamentarian would not accomplish the broader goal. Both Manchin and Sinema are on record not supporting the removal of the Parliamentarian.
IF your goal was to pass legislation then the real obsticle was/is Manchin and Sinema....
It’s entirely possible to do more than one thing at a time. There’s a lot of points of real vulnerability for both of the assholes and Biden should start making their lives hell and visiting our vengeance on their patrons.
But life would be a lot easier if the senate parliamentarian was on our side. Especially since the new parliamentarian could facilitate end runs around the two assholes.
I don't thnk Binden trusts Manchin to follow through with any agreement. Manchin has consistently changed his positions on this bill and, from what I'm reading, his proposal was not rejected outright but Binden wanted to make sure he could get Congress onside. Manchin got mad at the White House because he was named specifically in a press release last week (before the blowup yesterday). He doesn't want to be seen cooperating too closely with the White House for political West Virginia reasons.
Yup, this is basically it. He got mad that he was named in the WH statement that said negotiations were still ongoing.
That's because his proposal didn't have the votes. Manchin wanted Biden's support to whip. Instead, negotiations line was viewed as rejection. You need to try harder.
So Manchin claims he was pissed after he was explicitly named by the White House as the barrier to passage of the BBB act. His response? He announces on FOX news that he is unilaterally killing the BBB act. This doesn't even make sense, not even for a conservative from West Virginia. It smacks of a lame effort by Manchin to cover his sorry ass after an overstep.
It's also worth noting that the reason Manchin decided to blow up publicly all negotiations was because after giving his counterproposal last week the WH statement had this bit in it:
"My team and I are having ongoing discussions with Senator Manchin; that work will continue next week. It takes time to finalize these agreements, prepare the legislative changes, and finish all the parliamentary and procedural steps needed to enable a Senate vote. We will advance this work together over the days and weeks ahead; Leader Schumer and I are determined to see the bill successfully on the floor as early as possible."
That's what caused Manchin to throw a tantrum, that he was mentioned publicly by as the person needed to be convinced, and is now crying a river about how rude WH staffers are with him, which is why he's decided to take a stand.
Come the next election I'm betting he will declare himself an "independent", if not an outright Republican (he intimated as much in his rant), and then caucus with Republicans if/when they retake the Senate.
It was dumb and didn't work. Biden failure.
If being mentioned in a statement considering the fact the White House and everyone else knew they were talking to Sen. Manchin about the bill puts him off that much, well, talk about snowflakes, divas, and spoiled brats. "Civility" my fucking ass.
And oh by the way. Psaki and WH press office doesn't release a statement attacking Manchin without the President's okay. So I can imagine he's pretty upset he was left at the altar.
If manchin wants to be a Republican and vote like Ted Cruz and the rest of the right wing crew then I guess we’ll know he’s not worth keeping. Someone should sink his boat. 😂
Only after onboarding his Maserati.
President Manchin is developing my mean streak.
So Manchin decided to rule out voting for anything, on Fox news no less, without giving Biden notice. Way to negotiate, JoeM.
Poor little sensitive JoeM. I don't trust the bastard. I am so through with him. I am glad to see that Schumer intends to hold the vote anyway and have Manchin's no vote on the record.
Kevin left out an important line from the article.
If one accepts that the first part of the article is true, though it should be noted that these are anonymous sources, then this should also be included:
"The White House was weighing how to respond to Manchin’s proposal last week when on Sunday he told Fox News that he would be unable to support the current version of Democrats’ Build Back Better agenda. "
Sure looks like Manchin was not playing it straight. And after all this time, all the back and forth and shifting rationales , why should we accept Manchin's version ?
Nope. Manchin played it straight. He has veto power. Biden should have joined. If it failed, it fails together.
I’m happy the insufferable parents got screwed out of these benefits.
The watered down version of this thing Manchin was demanding was almost as good as nothing, so it doesn't make a huge difference either way at this point whether it passed or not, aside from the optics.
Agreed and by that point, what's the point?
Whatever goes on in Manchin's mind, Joe Biden does not come out of this with a reputation for strong leadership. It's not just the failure of BBB, also the decoupling of infrastructure therefrom, and the weak efforts on voting rights because BBB was considered more important.
I get that Biden did not benefit from the substantial congressional majorities FDR and LBJ had. It still seems to me he played his hand badly.
It had to be decoupled. Biden just failed.
Really? But you told us months ago the deal had already been done, and all that remained was the timing of the announcement. One might almost think you've no idea what you're talking about.
It was done. Manchin finally gave his deal. Biden never gave it a chance. I think Sanders could have been cornered.
I'm unable to see how "looking forward to renewing discussions in the new year" about a proposal made two days earlier is "never giving it a chance".
-1
Article reads like the drips of partial info came from Manchin. The article makes it clear that the details of the actual proposal is uncertain, but here are a few bits of info that make it sound like Biden should have compromised. Hmm, who coulda dropped that story?
Right? Manchin's staff puts out the most positive spin possible and we're just supposed to nod and blame Biden?
This is almost certainly *NOT* true and incredibly likely to be Manchin's staff deflecting the blame on to Biden. Manchin made it abundently clear that he was opposed to anything that would raise taxes on the wealthy or reduce the profits of polluters.
At what point do you tell someone welsher who's go-to line 'Do what I say or I'll kill the bill/jump partys/ect' to go pound pound sand? Manchin is holding the party hostage, no more, no less. This is who he's been his entire career and he should be treated accordingly.
If this is true, I would have taken Manchin's offer. The expanded CTC with no work requirement was always going to be a heavy lift, and I don't entirely understand why Biden was so attached to it. Oh well.
Perhaps Biden was "attached to it" because the level of child poverty in a country as jaw-droppingly wealthy as the United States is a deeply shameful scandal, and CTC makes a major dent in that.
But nonetheless, I would've taken it, too. Dropping the extended CTC would've been a terrible price to pay. But we're not going to get it now anyway. And there's no law of physics against introducing it in some future Congress. Oh well, indeed. Biden fucked up big time if this report is true.
There is no reason at all to believe that it is true and quite a lot of reason to believe that this is BS from Manchin's office.
I’ll believe that Manchin was ready to accept serious effort against climate change when the White House and Democratic Senators confirm it.
Oh for God's sake, you think Biden should have accepted an offer on the spot, without having a clue whether the rest of the party would vote for it? That would have been a real triumph: "Democrats reject Biden/Manchin bill".
Biden did exactly the correct thing, releasing an anodyne statement saying that negotiations would continue in the new year. The excuse Manchin is peddling - that he killed the bill because of "incivility" from the White House - is preposterous. Not even a conservative senator could be so immature. My guess is he got cold feet at the thought the rest of the party would accept the deal, leaving Manchin publicly acknowledged as the sole author of the final BBB bill. He would have been excoriated by every right-winger in the country as a closet socialist. So he panicked and put an abrupt end to the whole exercise.
Nope. Triangulate the liberals. Biden would come off with his dignity
"My guess is he got cold feet at the thought the rest of the party would accept the deal, leaving Manchin publicly acknowledged as the sole author of the final BBB bill."
As good a guess as any, and better than most. It is the best explanation of Manchin's behavior.
Manchin's behavior doesn't pass the smell test. He's not going to get re-elected no matter what happens. If he was truly concerned about the welfare of W.Va and/or the nation, he wouldn't behave like the uncommunicative Party-pooper he is. If he was truly concerned about the parts of the BBB bill he said he supported, he wouldn't be willing to torpedo the whole bill the way he just did. He is a phony, and giving Benedict Arnold a run for his money as a the nations top traitor.
I don't believe it, because Biden would have taken the deal. Either the reporting is wrong or Biden didn't believe manchin would honor the deal once the rest of the Dems agreed to it. Instead he works renege and move the goalpost yet again. Manchin doesn't want any bill to pass. He already said he would take a deal that was just CTC, whole in private saying no because it would be used too buy drugs. He's a list and an asshole.
CTC is what lifted so many children out of poverty. That's why it was so important to him. With CTC, he was able to maintain that he'd effectively lifted millions of children out of poverty.
Can it stand alone? Probably. Should they have accepted it? You know as well as I that these leaks are narrowly tailored narratives to control the national discussion for political leverage.
Something to keep in mind next time M<r. Drum weeps crocodile tears over clobal warming.
Biden will have to either refute this. Silence says the story is right.
Biden probably has rejected counter offers on this bill and the infrastructure bill before now, but all of a sudden it’s his fault? The problem with this report is that it as the reason for the break down of negotiations falls apart with Manchin’s own statements saying his frustration was with the WH staff, not Biden. You’d think if a simple refusal to take a specific counter offer caused Manchin to have his hissy fit on Fox News he would have said so. It would have made waves on the fascist network.
Also, Biden isn’t exactly stuck on CTC. Manchin’s counter offer removed a lot of environmental things from the bill, too. Removal of both likely would cause Sanders and Sinema to vote no. The progressives in the House are pissed off and all instead of a few could vote no out of spite this time, too. There’s more people to please than Manchin.
Also, the White House announced today Biden and Manchin are talking again and will resume negotiations in January.