My understanding is that there are two basic argument for banning TikTok:
- There's a danger that they might tune their recommendation algorithm to favor content from the Chinese government.
- China might be able to get access to the personal information of American users.
Genuine question here: Suppose both of these things happen. What's the worst case harm scenario? That American kids might be subtly brainwashed by Chinese propaganda? That China might learn the names of lots of American kids? I'm a little unclear about how much damage this could cause.
Generally speaking, I'm marginally in favor of banning TikTok simply because China bans nearly all American social media platforms. If they want access to our market, they need to give us access to theirs.
While its fine for governments entities to ban the app from government owned devices, its quite unclear to me under what law (that would not be challenged under the 1st Amendment) allows the government to ban just one social media business because they don't like who owns them?
Do we trust the DOD or Homeland Security with authority to ban businesses and information that they deem is a national security threat, without evidence of course. FYI, I believe that China is long term threat, and that most social media is potentially damaging our society, though not at much as Faux News of course.
National security exception.
Generally speaking, I'm marginally in favor of banning TikTok simply because China bans nearly all American social media platforms. If they want access to our market, they need to give us access to theirs.
I don't believe this is true. What is true is that China has a very different system from ours. There's no first amendment. There's not much in the way of rule of law (Xi is the law). Google, Twitter, Facebook and others have decided they can't operate their businesses given Chinese internet regulations. Which of course is their right. And indeed good for them! But if they were willing to meet China's terms, they absolutely could do business there. Many US firms do. Just visit any mall in Beijing.
Generally speaking, I'm marginally opposed to banning TikTok for a variety of reasons. I think peaceful coexistence beats a hot or cold war, and, call me crazy, but I reckon to that end some degree of bilateral relationship is better than none. I'm also skeptical of the claims about how dangerous TikTok is. Is it more dangerous than other Chinese apps (the top 4 downloads on US app stores last month were all Chinese)? And what about the "Oracle" solution? Bytedance had apparently worked out a deal whereby Oracle would house their TikTok (US) data. Has it been shown this won't work? Congress didn't seem very interested in hearing from TikTok on this. Finally, while a number of foreign governments have understandably banned TikTok from official phones, it doesn't appear that any other high income countries are banning TikTok outright, like the US. Which I fear means American designers, advertising agencies and various creative firms, artists and entrepreneurs will be at a disadvantage accessing one of the world's dominant social media platforms. As is increasingly the case, the US will be a party of one in our particularly intense degree of anti-China hysteria. (The EU has already ruled out banning TikTok for its consumers.)
The whole thing recalls the Nietzsche quote Kevin has in regular rotation about being careful when you stare into the abyss: in order to guard against China, America is apparently determined to, uh, become more like China.
China's firewall prevents its citizens from accessing Facebook et al.
The comparison is problematic for a simple reason - those services are blocked in the PRC because those companies refuse to comply with the Laws of the PRC. I am sure most people here are fine with that stance and disagree with the Laws of the PRC, but if a company is unwilling to follow the Laws of a country, it should not expect to be able to do business in that country. If Meta and Alphabet chose to follow the Laws of the PRC, they would no longer be blocked.
TikTok is in compliance with the Laws of the US.
The two situations are not comparable.
If congress changes the law such that TikTok is no longer in compliance, they're gone. Then the two situations are exactly comparable.
The PRC didn't change its Laws to target Meta or Alphabet, so no, the situations are still not comparable.
And he didn't say the law was changed to target Tik Tok ... dumbass. What the hell is your problem?
"If Meta and Alphabet chose to follow the Laws of the PRC, they would no longer be blocked"
It's cute that you think there are "laws" in China. Like somehow the legal system in China is remotely comparable to that of other countries with voters and real legislatures and multiparty political systems that lack, say, an autocratic president for life.
US tech companies don't "follow the Laws" of China in much the same way that Amnesty International doesn't "follow the Laws" of Russia.
I missed where you made an argument, as opposed to a bald faced assertion lacking evidence.
You missed it, eh? I thought the argument was pretty obvious. But if you say you are unable to follow it, well, who am I to disbelieve you?
The assertion the PRC has no real legal system is patently false, and that people here believe that doesn't make such opinions truth.
bald faced assertions are just that, assertions, not arguments.
Since the poster you are responding to did not say the PRC has no real legal system I have to wonder at your reading comprehension. Seriously. You aren't doing yourself any favors here.
Now, would you care to try again? Maybe this time actually be explicit and tell us what the rules in question are, how they are being these media companies are not following -- or refusing to follow -- them? This isn't rocket science.
As fun as it is to have a crazy stalker, know I will ignore you as you deserve to be ignored.
Chuckle. Whatever you have tell youself to live with yourself. The fact remains you can't answer the question and nobody particularly cares what you think. Now FOAD, troll.
If an authoritarian regime creates rules for how social media must operate, and the rules are anathema to how social media will operate in a free society, this seems the same as blocking. Google, Twitter, Facebook would no longer be Google, Twitter, Facebook. They become China regime subsidiaries.
So it's blocking by another means.
There are multiple social media platforms in the PRC. So no, the comparison is incorrect.
If an authoritarian regime creates rules for how social media must operate, and the rules are anathema to how social media will operate in a free society, this seems the same as blocking.
It's definitely not "blocking" nor does it "seem" like blocking. Such platforms simply (and quite understandably) feel operating under the regulations in question are not compatible with their business interests. Again, Google has opted out of the market but Bing has not. Lots of Western firms are willing to comply with Chinese law.
The comparison is problematic for a simple reason - those services are blocked in the PRC because those companies refuse to comply with the Laws of the PRC
It's not merely "problematic" it's flat out inaccurate. Google is blocked in China. Bing isn't. Facebook is blocked in China. Linked-In isn't. And so on. But yes, just like in the case of the USA, to do business in China you're required to follow Chinese laws.
(Admitely those laws are what you'd expect in one-party police state.)
China's firewall prevents its citizens from accessing Facebook et al.
Kevin: Facebook and other blocked sites don't have a business license to operate in China. That's why they're blocked. In theory there's no reason they couldn't obtain the necessary license from the government of China. They choose not to (wisely in my view; the Chinese market isn't worth the hoops they'd have to jump through).
For the reasons above Google is blocked by China but Bing isn't.
I think the fear is not pro china recommendations but anti US, like Russia already sows discord on domestic social media, with less ability to have it removed on TikTok.
That China might learn the names of lots of American kids? I'm a little unclear about how much damage this could cause.
They can get such information now by purchasing it from data brokers. Do we need stronger privacy protections? Maybe! Is banning TikTok going to prevent Beijing from getting data they want? Sure doesn't look like it.
Where do the data brokers get it from, TikTok?
While we're banning TikTok we should ban that entire business model.
All social media companies and search engines base their models on collecting data. So this is advocating banning Facebook, Instagram, Youtube, et. all
No shit, Sherlock. Are you always this quick on the uptake 😉
Maybe this is a kitty litter hysteria?
You know like when Satan tried to take the souls of children and have them murder their friends.
????????????
I keep seeing the TikTok app has all kinds of code in it that no one understands.
If this is true, why shouldn't arouse suspicion?
If a foreign company is going to be accessing, organizing and packaging all this information about US citizens shouldn't just what it is doing and collecting be required to be completely transparent?
They're going to hold all our devices hostage until we pay up!!!
(or minds of our children, or drain our bank accounts, or....)
--or work out exactly how best to engorge the wingnut brain.
see "Mars Attacks". And that's why they banned Dolly....
(I posted a link to the brain explodes scene, but security didn't like it)
Those Martians only attacked because their legitimate noise complaint was rudely ignored, but wingnuts want to attack.
So, choose your own answer.
- They compete with Facebook, who spends a lot on lobbying now.
- Hating on China is always popular, and especially so now.
- Fail Don started it as either attempted leverage or a bust out, but Biden is actually pretty damn aggressive against China, and means it.
Oh, you meant not the actual reasons, but some reason that would actually justify it?
Data collection. Kevin poo-poos this, but dossiers on a substantial fraction of the country is pretty damn useful for intelligence work. They have political leanings, at least rough income, social network graphs and psychographic data on what pushes peoples' buttons. The CIA would have erupted in thousands of simultaneous orgasms if they'd gotten access to similar in the Cold War.
The reason I don't care at all is that all our native surveillance shops are no better. And if TikTok is murdered, China can just buy access to much of the same, just with less control.
At best, this the mobster defending his protection racket. Nobody gets to fleece his sheep but him.
Or maybe this…
Within minutes of TikTok’s youngest users signing up for a new account, the platform’s powerful algorithm is bombarding teens with extremist content, including videos promoting suicide and the virulently misogynistic incel subculture, according to new research published today by corporate accountability group Ekō and shared with VICE News.
“Ten minutes and a few clicks on TikTok is all that is needed to fall into the rabbit hole of some of the darkest and most harmful content online,” Maen Hammad, Ekō campaigner and co-author on the report, said in an emailed statement to VICE News. “The algorithm forces you into a spiral of depression, hopelessness, and self harm, and it’s terribly difficult to get out of that spiral once the algorithm thinks it knows what you want to see. And it’s extremely alarming to see how easy it is for children to fall into this spiral.”
Well, you know, they deserve it. That would never happen to me since I’m a responsible user. I don’t think we should worry about this either. Why would we bother to try and protect kids from this? Let the 10 year olds drink vodka, smoke pot, and watch porn!
These people…
Every argument applied to TikTok applies just as much to Facebook and YouTube and Twitter (well, probably Twitter more so now that it's partly owned by Saudis et al.) TikTok is clearly not the problem here.
How do we know the Saudis own part of Twitter.
From Forbes:
"A piece of that puzzle was revealed Monday when Prince Alwaleed bin Talal bin Abdulaziz of Saudi Arabia announced in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing that he’d made good on his $1.9 billion commitment, making him the social media company’s second largest shareholder after Musk."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prince-alwaleed-becomes-twitters-second-largest-shareholder/?sh=5fd59c81523a
Technical question. How do you ban an app? In the USA. Were there are a multitude of Internet providers. And Wireless providers.
You make it illegal for service providers to host the app or allow traffic to it. I mean, to provide those telecommunication services you need approval and licensing from the FCC.
You boot it from the app store on the two major platforms. Done. Sure, some people will find a way around the app stores but you're talking about 1%. Nobody wants to participate in a social network if nobody else is there.
Technical question. How do you ban an app? In the USA. Were there are a multitude of Internet providers. And Wireless providers.
It will become illegal for all of this "multitude" to connect with TikTok. I'm not seeing the challenge.
The government won't be able to 100% banish TikTok from American phones and computers, true, but they can kneecap it into relative oblivion. App stores can be told not to carry the app and, critically, to prevent updates. Over time this will badly erode the platform's ability to operate in the USA. ISPs can be barred from connecting to the web-based version of the app. More Americans may get VPNs as a result, but not enough to shield TikTok's presence in the US. Advertisers can also, I think, be prevented from doing business with the platform.
Sanction them. No advertising dollars from the US. Cut them off from US banking system.
If they continue to make services available to US users that proves they are being ordered to do so by the CCP and you take more robust measures.
"China bans nearly all American social media platforms."
China also bans TikTok in its domestic markets. That alone is enough reason.
Not really:
"Is TikTok Banned in China?"
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-tiktok-banned-in-china/
Same company owns TikTok and Douyin (for the Chinese domestic market), but they are very different apps. See
https://www.adchina.io/douyin-vs-tiktok/#:~:text=Even%20though%20both%20the%20platforms,cannot%20interact%20with%20each%20other.
Tiktok is blocked in China.
I simply really like TikTok and enjoy seeing and posting videos. It’s algorithm is maybe to responsive that I have to manipulate it to stop showing me too much of one thing. I find using it much more enjoyable than Instagram and Facebook. I feel like that’s a big part of it, TikTok is simply doing a better job than the American companies and the politicians are doing their bidding. The idea that there is some kind of privacy or keeping information safe seems woefully outdated. I don’t see banning TikTok as doing anything but pissing off the youth at “boomers” more than they already are.
TikTok is simply doing a better job than the American companies and the politicians are doing their bidding.
It's not the whole story, to be sure, but there's zero doubt Silicon Valley protectionism is playing a role in this. Zuckerberg in particular has been openly urging a TikTok ban for a couple of years at this point.
For the same reason Cambridge Analytica's theft of Facebook data was harmful. It allows microtargeting of users based on constellations of known characteristics (probably mini-microtargeting by now-- data collection was comparatively in its infancy 8 years ago).
True, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok all tell us no worries, they only use that data to try to separate us from our money more efficiently so it's all good. But CA gives us a concrete illustration that there are other uses for data like that, and Fancy Bear and its ilk have never stood down, not as far as anything I've read. Long-term as well as short-term influence operations can be fed by that kind of data. So I agree with different_name, a *lot* of harm can be done.
We shouldn't stop with TikTok either-- we don't have any assurance that the likes of Facebook et al aren't doing us dirty with the data they have, only Zuck's occasional rote apologies. What we need is a set of comprehensive data restrictions that apply to all operators in this space.
But TikTok is overseen by a government that's been using our corporate weaknesses against us for over 40 years now (forced IP sharing, minority ownership restrictions, etc) and has said it's in competition with us, and has become pretty assertive lately. So in addition, I think it deserves strict scrutiny.
“What's the worst case harm scenario? That American kids might be subtly brainwashed by Chinese propaganda?”
Maybe I don’t understand the question, or perhaps I’m missing the context, but this strikes me as an odd question in our post-2016 election world. As best I recall, one of the big stories of that year - both in the Dem primary (boosting Sanders) and in the general election (boosting Trump) was foreign propaganda that spread through unregulated social media feeds.
Yes, I realize there will always be lingering debate regarding how much that foreign influence actually did, or did not, swing the election; but, why take the chance?
TikTok seems like some pretty low hanging fruit (a social media app originating from a hostile and authoritarian foreign power), so, if we’re ever going to do anything to try and undermine subversive and foreign social media influences, limiting or banning TikTok seems like an obvious place to start.
And maybe a few kids will wind up picking up a good book instead! No, just kidding …
Well, one thing Kevin's place is always good for is decent argument and counter argument. I don't know where I stand on this, but having read this thread, I feel really better informed. Thanks to all. Best wishes, Traveller
the part that the algorithm can control what people see may be worrisome. In 2016, there was concern that Russian accounts were helping trump on Facebook. But at least Facebook had the last word on what to show people.
now it's tiktok's algorithm taking side? i don't know. Twitter is definitely turning into a pro-trump outlet (just look at the focus of the Twitter files...) Facebook likes engagement over ethics. But they are US owned, so not subject to the same paranoia.
If there is wide bipartisan support to close down TikTok, I'm all for it. Such support would suggest that there's information we're not privy to, that greatly tips the balance. Either you have trust in your Democratic members in Congress or you don't.
Either you have trust in your Democratic members in Congress or you don't.
The Democratic Party has a long and proud history of doing whatever it takes to counter the "soft on Communism" charge constantly being levelled at them by the GOP without reference to the national interest. Google "Tonkin Gulf Resolution."
I think the Democrats are the infinitely better of our two parties. But they still often suck.
Republicans have been hurling the "soft on Communism" charge at Democrats since the "Who Lost China?" debate that erupted after Mao Zedong's forces defeated the Kuomintang in 1949. This shit goes way back.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I always read this blog one day late, via RSS feed -- a morning ritual.
Having now read one day's worth of comments, I have to say that I'm surprised I saw none about the obvious reason to ban TikTok, at least from government devices and personal devices used by government employees and contractors: China is widely suspected (without proof that I am aware of) of having placed data backdoors in hardware and software that they export. It is difficult but not impossible to sneak spyware into apps on Apple's app store. It is reputedly (again, I haven't seen evidence) less difficult to do it to Android apps. In neither case can it be regarded as categorically impossible.
If this is a real concern, we should not be concerned only about devices used by government and contractor employees. Critical infrastructure employees should also be included. And their spouses and children -- because their devices share their home networks.
I am not claiming that this is indeed a concern. I am a software engineer but not a computer security expert. I do claim that, if the computer security experts believe it to be a concern, then it is a concern.
But be cautious. You can take this concern to a point where you freeze yourself into complete inactivity. Suppose you need to buy a small network switch for your home network. Do you restrict yourself to manufacturers who incorporate no Chinese made components? If so, how do you verify that? And are you prepared to pay the high prices of companies that do ALL of their fabrication in the United States, with suppliers that are not owned by Chinese entities? You may never buy that switch!
But you can always go buy books and read them instead. Completely safe from Chinese malware.
Might want to check the “Printed in” on those books. Who knows what’s printed between the lines 🙂
The problem with TikTok is that it is a Chinese company which dominates the American market. China is able remain independent to the economic and military power the US uses to dominate other markets, making it a strategic opponent to America's global supremacy goals. Since TikTok is the market leader for smart phone social networking, it has become a target of state capitalism to protect American hegemony. Crony capitalism and super power competition are behind Congress threat to ban TikTok from America's users.
But not Lenovo?
In terms of the question “What could Actor A do with data from App B?” I would think knowing what App A is allowed to access would be an important consideration. Along with an idea of how long Actor A was willing to wait for that data to be useful to her. Toss-in a bit of what Gens Z, Y, and even X are willing to have on their phones.
Grrr. App B….
There seems to be a misconception that TikTok is a children's app. 68% of active TikTok users are age 20+ years old.
I think it's all dumb. It's theater, stoking anti-Chinese fears and sentiment to hide the fact that our government does nearly nothing to protect our information and privacy. Every other platform and app is vacuuming up a frightening amount of info on all of us, and that's fine. What if Zuckerberg or Musk choose to sell their data to China? What if China manages to hack them and get that data? If China can't be trusted with it, I really don't think anybody could be collecting it.
But I also think we're long past the point of addressing the problem and we should start accepting a society where everyone has our information, like it or not.
Analysis of Twitter algorithm code reveals social medium down-ranks tweets about Ukraine,
https://www.yahoo.com/news/analysis-twitter-algorithm-code-reveals-072800540.html
Of course, there is this:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/02/tech/china-pinduoduo-malware-cybersecurity-analysis-intl-hnk/index.html