More from Ben Dreyfuss:
I genuinely have no idea what people mean when they say they’re “queer.” I used to understand it to mean gay but now it seems to mean…someone who wants to attend the Pride parade. Maybe they’re gay. Maybe they’re not.
— Ben Dreyfuss (@bendreyfuss) November 11, 2024
It's been my assumption that queer, in its current usage, is an umbrella term that means anyone other than a boring cis het person. Maybe you're gay, maybe you're trans, maybe you're questioning, maybe you're pan, whatever. As long as you're not garden-variety ordinary in some sex-related way, you're queer.
It's also an example of reclaiming a word often used as a slur in the past. So it's a little more shocking and radical than plain old gay and trans.
Let's open this up to comments. Is this correct? Or am I misinformed?
It's also an example of reclaiming a word often used as a slur in the past.
Yes. And such reclaiming takes some courage btw.
It's been my assumption that queer, in its current usage, is an umbrella term that means anyone other than a boring cis het person. Maybe you're gay, maybe you're trans, maybe you're questioning, maybe you're pan, whatever. As long as you're not garden-variety ordinary in some sex-related way, you're queer.
Mostly sorta yes, except for the bolded terms, which suggests that it in some ways is a slur on non-queer folk, which I'm sorry to say comes off as yet another example of non-queer folk actually suggesting some degree of OFFENSE! "Oh when they say 'queer,' they think we're boring." In that regard, very much no.
(Plus, of course, the use of "ordinary," which by implication means queer folks are NOT "ordinary," which ... oh never mind.)
I suppose, at least, thank you for asking.
Wow did you really accuse him of looking for an excuse to be offended while coming off as offended by an innocuous question? I'm not sure which is the takeaway that you are looking for a reason to be offended or that you dislike the fact that other people are so determined to look for a reason to be offended.
Drum certainly does not come off as offended by the term.
Oh those queers, they think we ORDINARY people are BORING.
Certainly dismissive at the very least. And why the adjectives? Why attribute the attitude to queer folk that non-queer folk are "boring"? And "ordinary" -- really?
This is the thing about bigotry -- it comes in many degrees. Certainly not suggesting that KD is a homophobe or approves of homophobia. This is more casual. It's comes off as just a LITTLE bit offended, like "why do they use a term that suggests/implies we're boring?" And perhaps it's not intended that way.
Now this is linguistic nitpicking. BUT THAT'S THE POINT OF THE POST. And to ask about the term "queer" and use adjectives like that -- utterly unnecessarily by the way, or at least carelessly -- invites response.
Try an exercise. Consider the same post, using the same adjectives, except concerning the term "n***er" as reappropriated by Black Americans, eg "boring White person." Raise any eyebrows?
I think you're reaching with that last comparison.
Thanks, bbleh! ^-^
Agree completely. Nothing about the use of "queer" suggests that non-queers are boring. They just aren't queers. Unless they want to be. In which case, welcome!
I'm not sure I would describe myself as "queer". I'm a heterosexual, cisgendered white guy. I am definitely gay and trans friendly. I have been called a "fag stag" by people with the right to apply that label. I don't try and claim it though.
But yeah, there are some ways in which don't conform with What A Man Should Be, so in that way, I'm a little bit genderqueer. I think a lot of straight white guys are, but they are afraid of the label.
Anyway, please don't represent the queer folk as demeaning everyone else. That's not the point.
Haha - never came across the term "fag stag" before. Good one.
in the 21st century, queer became increasingly used to describe a broad spectrum of non-heteronormative sexual or gender identities and politics.[6][7] Academic disciplines such as queer theory and queer studies share a general opposition to binarism, normativity, and a perceived lack of intersectionality, some of them only tangentially connected to the LGBT movement. Queer arts, queer cultural groups, and queer political groups are examples of modern expressions of queer identities.
Second paragraph for "queer" on Wikipedia. Y'all know you can look this up easily right? This nearly feels like a performative, or maybe 'willful and dismissive,' ignorance. I mean, if someone tells me about some dish they got at a restaurant and I have no idea what this exotic "dim sum" stuff is, I just look it up...
It's nice to have working definitions separated from the academic jargon, especially when the academics involved have strong political biases. You don’t have to be far left, or even left of center, to support rights and tolerance toward LGBT people. But I’d guess that 100% of academics working in disciplines such as queer theory and queer studies would be ranked as far left on the US political spectrum.
Tolerance? What do you mean by that?
I've always hated that word. It always ends up being conditional.
Yes - it's like "put up with because you have to."
Acceptance as fellow human beings who can be respected and treated with normal human kindness even if their lifestyles and beliefs differ from one's own. For example, Catholics can respect people who are gay, and treat them with normal kindness, even if their church teaches them that homosexual sex is wrong.
Wikipedia is useful but is in no way a definitive source. Anybody can edit it any time they want.
Yes, my understanding is: all that, definitely with bbleh’s caveats.
My daughter is not sure of much (she’s a teen! - there’s no reason she should be.) but the one thing she is certain of is that she is not cishet. So definitely queer, but not obligating herself with any absolute additional specificity.
+1 umbrella term to be welcoming of those not sure of their identity.
But she is. She's sure she's not cishet. What more do you need?
'
She's sure of who she is not but not sure of exactly who she is.
I take "queer" as being the equivalent, roughly, of "spiritual but not religious"
It has become very high status for affluent teens to assert exotic sexual orientations.
Probably true in some circles. But teens will teen.
For sure, they will.
But I think it explains some of the rise in "queer" and "non-binary" identifications — there's no expected lifestyle commitment.
HS teacher here.
While there are plenty of legit LGBT students out there. I do think it is also true that telling your parents that your pronouns are them/they is also an easy way to make your parents uncomfortable. And serves the same purpose as long hair on boys or miniskirts on girls 50 years ago. Nothing is more fun than challenging societal norms when you are 17.
It is also a way that lots of kids use to show solidarity with their "queer" friends.
Queer basically means gay, in the sense of sexuality, not that you identify as only gay per se, but that you're not locked into being "straight" (open-minded but not necessarily engaging in it).
This is my take because I've not heard people who are abstinent ever really referred to as queer (maybe in some smaller circles tho), but I'm a straight (far from straight-edged) guy from San Francisco so am not sharing any kind of insider perspective here (just more exposure than the norm).
None of the young straight ladies I grew up with who experimented with other young ladies in high school or college years ever referred to themselves as queer either (most queer-friendly tho), so it's a fluid concept.
Questioning people are welcome, but the basic part of experimenting is that you don't identify as such yet.
Abstinent are significantly included in queer - especially as Ace (asexual), plus related aromantic, etc.
I thought it is a very broad term these days, meaning anyone whose gender expression is "non-normative", as the Wikipedia description says. Of course, "non-normative" could mean anything at all.
I airways thought the term was non binary. Because they don't completely identify with either gender.
I hate world press. And my phones keyboard. And my bad typing skills on said phone.
My recollection is that its revival (reclaiming) was about sexual fluidity, not really gender fluidity, but perhaps that has changed, which could potentially further confuse the differences between biological sex, gender, and sexual preferences (in the mainstream mind), and put to question the insistence when we argued for legalizing gay marriage (and strengthening gay rights) that people are born this way so a simple equal protection issue.
Oh absolutely, gender and sex are a constantly debated construct! Welcome to the weeds.
That's not... no.
Queer includes nonbinary (enby aka NB) people yes, but it's all non-cis-het in any way.
Nonbinary is a subset, not the whole.
Kevin and every commenter here (so far) is missing the subtext of Ben’s tweet.
So let me ask you this: why is the LGB Alliance so utterly reviled among “queer” and trans activists? It was founded by lifelong gay rights champions: the kind of people who fought for and won gay marriage rights. Why are they now physically assaulted by trans extremists at LGB Alliance conferences?
Yes: assaulted. At one LGB Alliance conference earlier this year, trans rights extremists snuck in and released an infestation of bugs to torment the attendees. At a conference of Lesbians and gays! Why?
Anyone (like Kevin) who ignores questions like these is either willfully blind or genuinely uninformed (probably because even after Trump’s utterly shocking historic triumph he still remains committed to his Leftist echo chamber).
But there’s a tweet in response to Ben’s question which gets at the essence of the issue:
“Queer is now entirely a political identity. It’s far left ideology.”
It’s not an “inclusive” term indicating a broad minded quest for social justice. Please. Spare me.
“Queer,” rather, indicates a radical sociopolitical tribe. They are hard to characterize, mainly since their general thrust is towards a deconstruction that rejects the analytic tools that other groups might use to define themselves.
But, broadly speaking, they seem to align themselves against any sort of “hetero-normative” construct, gender-based distinction, or sex-related binary.
Obviously, this is exactly the kind of thing the Left can use to win back those disenchanted Trump voters! (Not)
And if any of these points sound vague or even appealing, consider that some of the real world ramifications that result from this ideology include the aforementioned assault on gay rights activists who are so unforgivably insidious that they first of all dare to assert a right to think for themselves and then proceed to assert a belief in biological sex and same sex attraction. Those heretics must be stoned!
So please wake up. Do you want to keep losing elections indefinitely, or will you finally take a look in the mirror and acknowledge that the “queer” movement, among many others, indicates some serious problems with extremism on the Left?
Perhaps it's because gays and lesbians can be biased against trans and queer people.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://victoryinstitute.org/a-look-at-transphobia-within-the-lgbtq-community/&ved=2ahUKEwiWqMq5qdOJAxVzEGIAHZo4FDMQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw31Gna5KEr6u3u2jTHr4Uvp
It's comparable to the exclusion of black women from the women's suffrage movement. They wanted rights, just not for everyone.
Great example!
Well, if the women's suffrage movement was mostly men, which is what the LGB bigots are - mostly het straight and not LGB at all.
The LGB literally have only lobbied their own government *against* marriage equality and trans rights. They've published biphobic materials ...and written a few stern worded letters against other governments who discriminate against queer people.
Thanks for the info.
Do gays and lesbians honestly think that they are on different level than transgenders and queers? They aren't. They maybe tolerated more, but make no mistake, a bigot and homophobe sees no distinction. Gay people are still harrased, assaulted and murdered. The same as, if not a bit less than, transgenders and queers.
Gay people have achieved at least legal equality, mostly, and social equality, to a degree. Out gays in the military. Gay marriage. Gay marriage of soldiers in the base chapel! So right wingers had to move on to the smaller more marginal categories to get the same reactions. Anti-trans stuff is anti-queer/anti-gay.
(Not that a past puberty boy who now identifies as female is not very possibly at an advantage competing in school sports. It's complicated, more than some may want to admit even if only about a tiny number of people.)
This might surprise you, Leo, but I've considered myself progressive for a very long time, I follow politics in the blue state in which I now reside, and in the bluer state where I lived half my life, and I have never heard of the LGB Alliance, nor of the incident you allege to have occurred. Nor do I care a fig about the agendae of tiny minorities of extremist loons (except as I would respect the rights of any individual, as long as they respect the rights of others). Secondly, you provide no evidence that these misbehaving persons identify as left, or progressive; or that any significant number of left-leaning or progressive citizens advocate such behavior.
tl;dr -- nutpicking in the first degree
It's not worth reading.
“Queer is now entirely a political identity. It’s far left ideology.” Yeah, making it political just adds another level to your obvious bias.
I had to look this up. it was a "trans-exclusionary" group with J.K. Rowling as the speaker. The trans group released thousands of crickets. A little context there.
Context is for honest people. Leo is not.
Do they consider that an assault?
The trans group released thousands of crickets
and the birds and lizards went wild!
WTF is wrong with you?
I had to look this up. It was a "trans-exclusionary" conference which had J.K. Rowling as the speaker. trans activists released thousands of crickets. a little context
Bigot gotta bigot.
Fuck off. I am Queer because LGBTQAIAS2 is terrible branding and a mouthful. If you're not part of the community get out of the convo.
If you're not part of the community get out of the convo.
The "community" if we're referring to people who actually know what y'all are talking about is, like, 5% of the population. Virtually no Trumpists understand, sure, but even the vast majority of mainstream liberals and Democrats don't get all this jargon. Even amongst yourselves you can't decide on what "queer" means—there are varying opinions in this very thread.
It's no wonder a lot of people are nervous about speech policing. If you can't possibly keep up with the evolution of Preferred Labels and Terminology, you don't have prayer of avoiding trouble.
(I mean, if former Mother Jones writers can't keep up with this shit, what chance do the rest of us have?)
Language evolves with each generation. Get over it. If anyone's giving you shit for not being up to date on debates within the Queer community, get off X and touch some grass.
So some rando on Twitter is worth quoting on this? (I mean, I could also say that about Kevin's post, but I assume he's filtering here for something and not just as a club to hit people with).
And yes we already know that some people out there hate
"queer"basic human rights and liberty. I won't give those up to win an election, how about you? Who else do you wish to see thrown under a bus to win?So let me ask you this: why is the LGB Alliance so utterly reviled among “queer” and trans activists?
Because it was formed in 2019 with the explicit claim that being transgender was not in any way like being gay, lesbian, or bisexual. They explicitly claim that there is not ". . . not some multitude of genders on a gender spectrum." They explicitly believe that transgender rights endanger gay rights. They explicitly demand that protections in the law against conversion therapy apply only to gay people, and not trans people.
In other words, because they actively oppose the acceptance of the transgendered. They deny that any of the above is transphobic, but it's a ridiculous denial.
Thanks for sparing me some Google time, everybody.
I suspect that there are different shades of meaning depending on who you ask. I mean, I am pretty sure there is no official national clearance authority for this?
I certainly hope, however, that it becomes the standard term for anyone who is basically not cis-het. I am getting tired of trying to find out the latest variation of the LGB letter thing. If we just called all that Queer, it would be so much easier for folks to talk about things without fear of inadvertently offending people.
A large group of people don't always identify the same way. National distinction has been a major part of white identity forever. I've never seen that be much of an issue. I'm 54 years old and have yet to come across a situation in my everyday life where LGBTQ initials caused a problem or an issue.
Well, there's nonbinary, asexual, intersex, two-spirit, questioning... lotsa people that leaves out who may need to be represented. Which is why queer works so well.
Plus, queer pisses off the old guard who hate drag/trans/asexual/etc.
And this is why Queer is a better umbrella. Simple, all encompassing, no need for debate about whether aro/ace folks fit in. If you feel like the gender & sexuality norms don't apply to you, you're some level of Queer!
This is how you know ben is not okay.
Who cares if Ben Dreyfus (or Kevin, or anyone else) understands what people mean when they call themselves "queer"? If it was important or personal to them then they'd know how it's used. The people who identify as queer know what they mean and everyone else can mind their own business.
+1
I don't know what the kids are doing these days, but no one I know in the LGBTQ+ universe identifies themselves as "queer". Gay, lesbian, bi, trans or non-binary are pretty commonly used, and useful terms. People in academics may use the term "queer" to encompass a broad group (as in "queer" literature), or you may see it show up in a Dan Savage column, but I don't hear it much in everyday usage.
Dreyfuss is right: "queer" is now so vague it's nearly meaningless, as useless a word as "socialism". It's why I prefer the acronym "LGBT+" to the version with Q in it; Q is better off just being folded into the +.
Repurpose the f word to reclaim a word used as a slur against homosexuals in the past. Gun f's, MAGA f's, war f's, Zionist f's, Trump f's. The slur is effective when used to insult authoritarians but is still too much associated as a slur against homosexuals.
There is simply no reason to look at Ben Dreyfuss for any reason except to make fun of him, he has a high-school mentality.
Wow, there's some great information in this thread. Stuff I didn't know about. I knew in the abstract, for instance, that there were gay men who did not support trans rights, just as there are feminists. Now I have a name for them. LGB Alliance. Got it. Never give money to them. Ok.
Circling back to Kevin's OP, I get the impression that he used the word, "boring" in a playful way, rather than intending to demean. I would like him to recognize that this ends up being a bomb, whether he means it to, or not.
It is a challenge to write about this stuff, and not piss anybody off. Because they seek to divide. (Such as LGB Alliance).