Here's a telling tweet from Paul Waldman about yesterday's stump speech by Republican Blake Masters in Arizona:
And here comes Blake Masters! On the stump he's solid if less than spectacular. Most of his speech is about how Mark Kelly and Joe Biden are in cahoots to destroy America. "So much of it looks intentional" he says. pic.twitter.com/ZhfOOx7yXc
— Paul Waldman (@paulwaldman1) November 7, 2022
"So much of it looks intentional," Masters says to a cheering crowd. And with that we see the big difference between conservatives and liberals these days. Maybe we both hate each other equally. Maybe we misunderstand each other equally. Maybe we fear each other equally. But we liberals, no matter how misguided we think the MAGAnauts are, don't think they're deliberately trying to destroy the country out of sheer malice.
Many conservatives do. They believe that liberals hate America because it's the root source of racism, militarism, gun culture, Christian nationalism, greed, police violence, and more, all of which means it needs to be taken down a peg. So things like terrorism, high inflation, and the explosion of fentanyl aren't merely problems to be solved, but problems that liberals have deliberately spawned and secretly bankrolled as a way of weakening and eventually bringing down America as a world power.
This is the great fear. Not merely that liberals are wrong and need to be opposed, but that liberals are steadily and purposefully trying to destroy the soul of the country. This is why they fight back so viciously. You would too if you believed this.
So they side with Putin, the former KGB agent, who despises America more than anybody because of what it did to the USSR.
yes.
Actually they admire Putin and wish to be like him...
Former liberal here. I’ve read Kevin for 20 years (!). I’ve always respected his equanimity and ability to dispassionately call balls and strikes. To puncture platitudes. But I cannot stomach the democratic platform any more. The prog worldview is so alien to mainstream American thinking I rapidly found myself an alien in my own party. The idea that equality under the law is racist, that ethical universalism is racist; that reality itself is subject to the whims of a gender dyspeptic person- is perplexing and grotesque. Yes, many libs actually said defund the police, vaccinate or else, and most insanely - betrayed free speech. Socialism is a failed worldview that somehow is en vogue again. I simply do not understand those who extoll these positions. These policies are so obviously destructive that yea, it really does seem that progs want to destroy America. Have you ever seen a prog EVER Fail to blame America in any conflict? The excuse making for violent criminals (!!) over regular scent people is stupefying. I don’t expect readers on this site to agree. But this is the first time in my life I, a two time Obama voter, will vote red unapologetically. I’ve been told for years at work and in public sphere I am the enemy. Why is anyone surprised when we listen and believe it? I AM THE ENEMY. So be it. I can’t vote for such vile views.
"Equality under the law is racist".
Say you have a running competition. One person had a 100 lb weight attached to them at birth, the other didn't. No accommodation is made for the 100 lb weight.
Is that equality because the 100 lb weight is ignored?
I don't think so, but it sounds like you do.
"reality itself is subject to the whims of a gender dyspeptic person"
Reality is that people are deciding what they want to be called, instead of accepting the labels other people put on them. Just because you don't like the name they choose for themselves does not mean that they are denying reality. It means you are denying their right to call themselves what they want.
"many libs actually said defund the police"
Sources for "many" please, in context, and indicate whether they are elected officials or on the fringe.
"vaccinate or else"
which means take a perfectly safe shot to prevent elderly and immunocompromised people from dying. Are you opposed to that? Do you acknowledge any responsibilities as a citizen, or just the freedoms?
"betrayed free speech"
Examples from Democrats? Anything like "don't say gay" laws, book banning, prohibition of criticizing a social media platform when you post on it (Truth Social), or censuring congress members for acknowledging that January 6 was a bad thing? All those are just fine-dandy with you?
"Have you ever seen a prog EVER Fail to blame America in any conflict?"
Umm, Ukraine where we actually oppose Russia? North Korea sending missiles? China threatening Taiwan?
"I’ve been told for years at work and in public sphere I am the enemy. "
Maybe you ought to get a different job. Sounds unpleasant. But then again, if everyone is telling you this, there may be some self-examination in order.
But seriously, why did they say you are the enemy? Simply because you are a white male? They are wrong to say that. But Joe Biden and the dozens and dozens of white male Democrats in Congress not agree with them, so please don't pretend it is anything other than the fringe of the fringe saying that.
Or do they cal you the enemy because you called them "progs" or "libs", and told them how stupid they were for disagreeing with you? Hmm.
To puncture platitudes. But I cannot stomach the democratic platform any more. The prog worldview is so alien to mainstream American thinking...
"The worldview of progressive activists" ≠ "the policies pursued by the Democratic Party"
If you want to support a party that actively seeks to undermine our democratic constitutional order en route to making your and your family's lives less pleasant and secure on bread and butter issues—all because of what a few firebrand lefties from Manhattan or Berkeley say on Twitter—I guess I can't stop you.
But to people like Roger Stone, Steve Bannon and, well, Donald Trump, you and your ilk are useful idiots.
Why shouldn't anyone be free to live as they want?
A sincere question. If someone isn't the gender assigned to them, why would you deny them the freedom to be who they are?
This was a simple question 20 years ago for gay people. 50 years ago for women. An ongoing question for people of color.
I'm being entirely sincere, not combative.
Gender is NOT assigned, it is observed. "Assigned" implies that the doctor who delivers a baby simply arbitrarily gives it a gender, which is entirely false. The delivering physician, or in many cases an attending physician looking at the results of a pre-natal ultrasound, looks at the baby's physique and reports the result of that observation.
Sex is observed.
For a baby, there's no distinction.
You are repulsed by the MAGA caricature of liberalism which bears little resemblance to the lived experience of the vast majority of Democrats and other progressives. Why you choose to believe the hateful retrograde nonsense coming from the Right is your business.
If you’re a progressive and sincerely believe that open borders and defund the police haven’t been complete catastrophes for the very communities you claim to support, no amount of evidence will persuade you. Progressivism is the nastiest, meanest spirited philosophy I’ve seen. I welcome you, lefties, to leave the party of ideology for decency and sanity.
And we are under such a threat from them, but Democrats only talk about how big the threat is and don't act that way, which is why their voters are demoralized.
Ukraine, Abortion, whatever there were plenty of unifying themes to have made this election about instead.
This seems to be the common refrain of the Andrew Sullivan/Josh Barro crowd. But I'm not seeing the evidence. There have been plenty of warnings as to what's at stake. MSNBC constantly talks about the danger to our democracy. President Biden just gave a major address on the threat to our democratic norms. It's true that Democrats haven't literally completely refrained from talking about issues other than the threat to our constitution: they're trying to win an election, after all (and ultimately defeating Republicans is how to save the Republic). So, they calculate, rightly or wrongly, that highlighting this or that issue will help them win. Ultimately we'll probably never know what the optimal communications strategy is for the simple reason that we cannot access parallel universes.
And you'd have to be incredibly dumb to believe it. 99% of people don't want to destroy the place where they live.
The effectiveness of the "Liberal's hate America" tactic is solid evidence for the generalizations Democrats make about Republicans.
Orwell would be proud.
I don't doubt that many overly emotional Americans believe Democrats want to destroy the country. That's what many emotional Americans believe Republicans want to do.
Unfortunately, bomb-thrower Dems like Omar and Jayapal give the impression that they really dislike America, and there are campus radicals like Kendi who help amplify this impression.
OTOH, the norm now in Republican circles is batshit crazy types, what used to be called extremists, who use primary elections to advance the most crazy members of their group. We really need election reforms that tamp down the crazy promoted by 15 percent of both parties and return candidate selection to mainstream party members.
This will not happen so long as Trump lives, unfortunately. Fortunately, he is old and overweight and likely hasn't many more years to live.
I'm afraid social media and up-to-the minute news have almost killed stable politics in this country. Remember the feeding frenzy in the press over Hillary's emails? They were nothing, but Comey felt pressured to ream her out over them. Where is Comey's excoriation of Trump's theft of thousands of pages of classified documents? Yeah, I haven't seen it either.
And they are correct in this belief.
As do most Republican candidates and officeholders, who never miss a moment to describe the country as going to hell in a handbasket. What of it? If they're saying things that aren't true, that's one thing, but I expect politicians to point out the flaws of the country en route to putting them right.
Candidate selection is more democratized than it ever has been; over the past three decades or so both parties have consistently adopted reforms that place candidate selection beneath the broadest swathe of party membership it can manage. Candidate selection has never, ever been more mainstream.
Point out to me some specific candidates you feel are outside the mainstream of their nominating constituencies. Go on.
"But we liberals, no matter how misguided we think the MAGAnauts are, don't think they're deliberately trying to destroy the country out of sheer malice."
Speak for yourself, white man. I believe Rs are completely consumed with hatred for/malice towards the country liberals have been building over the last 50 years (the country where the definitions of citizen and person have been steadily expanded) and want to destroy it.
I agree completely.
Yes. I think Republicans want to destroy the country. Why else would you risk the good credit of the nation? Why else would you be talking endlessly about civil war?
Republicans hate American and want to destroy it. It explain a lot.
Yes, CLEARLY Republicans make horribly, and broadly wrong statements about Democrats. This is a sad escalation of our political rhetoric.
I WISH it was a one way street. When I my fellow Democrats make broad based claims the Republicans are racists, ignorant, or part of a cult I too roll my eyes.
Many on this site will hate this statement: not all Republicans are evil, racist or backward thinking.....
Well, sure. But the vast majority of Republican pols and office holders definitely seem to be. Or they like to play at it.
You should not roll your eyes at people speaking the truth.
Literally all of them, one hundred percent? No, of course not.
It is true, however, that the Republican agenda, which is avidly, enthusiastically pushed forward by the vast majority of Republicans, is all three of those things. So making broad based claims is accurate.
Is controlling the borders racist? Is judging someone on the content of their character and not their skin color racist? Is being against abortion up to the point of birth racist?
A note on my last question - more black babies as a percentage of the black population are aborted than other races. Margaret Sanger, who many leftists worship, was highly racist.
"Is controlling the borders racist?" Well, no, not in and of itself. But complaining about so-called "open borders" about our border to the south is racist. You bet.
The rest of you diatribe is just nonsense. Nothing to do with anything. Just a string of empty RW talking points.
Elective abortions occur as soon as women can get them. This may be delayed somewhat by access or finances, but just simply does not occur just before birth. Women want to terminate unwanted pregnancies as soon as possible. Pregnancy disasters in wanted pregnancies can occur at any point in a pregnancy and women should not be forced to risk death to save a fetus at any point in a pregnancy. A woman with PROM, for example, should not be forced to wait for the natural — and inevitable — death of a fetus before termination. That choice is hers alone and should not be the choice of legislators with extremely limited understanding of medicine.
The fantasy that women are denied abortions after 15 weeks in liberal! France! is nonsense. Women can easily access free contraception and free abortion before that point. After fifteen weeks, they still have access to both elective and medically necessary abortions with readily available physician consent.
CBP set a record in 2021 for "encounters" with suspected illegal immigrants along the Mexican border. They're on track to break that record this year. In other words, border enforcement under Biden is more vigorous than it has ever been before. I completely fail to see even a hint of "open borders".
The Republican Party has embraced the thinking of those who are evil, racist, and backward thinking. People like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys are now their enforcement arm. They have purged some of their most conservative members if they dare say the election wasn’t rigged. Any Republican who dares to defy Trump places their lives and the lives of their families in jeopardy.
The current version of the Republican Party has no decency, ethics or morals. Any comparison to “bomb throwers” on the left is absurd. It’s like comparing the person who snuck a penny candy in the grocery store to the person who robbed the cashier at gunpoint and pistol whipped the bagger.
I am not a fan of the Oath Keepers or the Proud Boys. But they do not represent mainstream Republicans like myself. I was horrified by much of what happened on Jan 6th. Antifa is of the left, but I believe that mainstream Democrats disavow their actions.
But the ex-president and most of congressional GOP do represent "mainstream" Republicans now. And they not only don't disavow Proud Boys and other militia cosplayers, they embrace them. Like it or not, your party ain't the party of Dwight Eisenhower anymore. You're either with 'em or against 'em.
You are no longer a mainstream Republican. You are a RINO, by the definition of a large majority of Republicans..
Republicans voted Trump into office. Never-Trumpers were few and far between.
It certainly is hard to win over people by calling them racists and/or misogynists, but if they vote in people who espouse racism and misogyny--that's not name calling, just a reflection of who they are. The backlash and outrage is because they were caught.
This is a dilemma. People do not like scolds. Trump has convinced his followers that an attack on him is an attack on them--so pointing out Trumps faults just angers his base.
Obama wondered a while ago what would break the "fever" sweeping the Republican party. It Trump didn't snap people to their senses, I'm not sure what will.
Trump has a LOT of faults. But a racist is not one of them. Calling Republicans racist is how Democrats demagogue.
Is someone who caters to racist impulses a racist? Is a party that embraces white supremacists as part of its coalition racist? Does it matter? If what they do advances racist causes, they are corruption of modern American civility.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you are too young or too far from the New York media market to know about the case of the Central Park Five, but those of us who do remember know without a doubt that Trump is a racist, who still, after another man confessed to the crime, insists on the guilt of the five innocent young men of color, whom his fulminations in paid newspaper advertisements helped to convict; convictions later vacated.
To your last point, what do you think happened that caused the Dixiecrats to switch to the Republican Party after the passage of the Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act?
And what is the grounds to believe that they believe that liberals hate America?
They don't. They believe it is a nice lie to tell. Which is why you cannot change their mind. If somebody things that liberals hate America, if you can convice them to look atthe facts, you can convice that it is false. But when somebody thinks that it is aggod lie toi tell, there is no to convince them.
Projection, projection, ALL projection.
It's clear that the Republican Party is working to destroy democratic elections. Trying to prevent Americans from voting. Making people lose faith in our government, while ironically worshipping the 1700s-vintage aspects of the Constitution (and ignoring the modernizing amendments.) Insisting that whenever the federal government gets involved in anything, it screws it up.
Screaming how the Democrats want the federal government to "control your life" while doing that themselves for women's reproductive issues and that whole sex and gender deal. Literally trying to bring down the government, including killing the next two people in line for the Presidency.
Yeah, they say Democrats are "destroying the country" because that's what they themselves are working towards.
Yes, consciously or unconsciously, Republicans working to destroy the country are not hard to find. My theory is that they have a death-wish, and want to take as many liberals down with them as possible.
Diagnosis: insanity induced stupidity.
What a lot of MAGA supporters believe is that many people on the left hate the part of America that is based on White Christian supremacy - and they would be largely right. Why wouldn't minorities hate the system that has oppressed them? Why wouldn't the non-religious or even those who are not evangelical Christians hate the way that a certain religion must be dominant?
The leaders on the left say - or should - that the opposition is to the racism and religiosity, not to the people who support it (comments on many liberal sites - not so much this one - do often express hatred). But racism and religiosity are so much a part of the identity of some people that everything else is subordinate - they will go to any lengths not to have to give these things up. It's the same kind of tribal instinct that causes people to give up their lives for their country, religion, side in a religious war, etc. They do hate people they think are trying to take away their identity.
Republican politicians have deliberately and cynically fostered this kind of division since Nixon and Reagan although it keeps getting more blatant. These politicians giving speeches don't think that liberals hate America, but they know how to get their side riled up.
What an odd thing to say. "I am not opposed to the people are doing terrible things."
"Hate the sin but love the sinner". It's good Christian doctrine.
"Why wouldn't minorities hate the system that has oppressed them? Why wouldn't the non-religious or even those who are not evangelical Christians hate the way that a certain religion must be dominant?"
I dunno -- I'm Jewish and of Hispanic background, and I just don't feel oppressed. Maybe the secret is low expectations, or a sense of history, but I'm definitely struggling to think of a better time or place to be an ethnic or religious minority than 21st century America.
Perhaps you live in a good place.
Go north, young man.
>>I'm definitely struggling to think of a better time or place to be an ethnic or religious minority than 21st century America.
That's a pretty low bar friend, historically speaking. It has pretty much sucked to be an ethnic or religious minority anywhere much before now.
But can you say "I feel fully equal and comfortable as an ethnic or religious minority everywhere in the country"?
If you didn't get affected by 10/27/2018, I'd say you are highly naive, living under a rock etc. Or maybe you're not culturally Jewish, don't speak Spanish and can easily pass for waspy white dude so you're an honorary white.
If you don't think this, you're part of the problem. You should have an accurate view of what your opponents are about, and they are, in fact, by any reasonable metric of "destroy," attempting to destroy the country. Believing otherwise means believing in something that isn't true.
Exactly. (You beat me to it.) Kevin hasn't updated his thinking since junior year in history class. Barely better than clueless when it comes to politics.
Whenceforth comes Kevin's ability to empathetically get inside the Republican mind and declare that their beliefs are genuinely held? If they are, go against all measures of truth, unlike the beliefs of most Democrats.
I personally think most Republican beliefs are politically expedient lies. But no matter, they are diametrically opposed to truth and evidence and this a a clear difference between the two Parties. Two possibilities:
1. Republicans believe their shit; they are insane.
2. Republicans cynically manipulate the masses, they are evil.
No, MAGAnauts don't want to destroy America, they just want to go back to the America of a previous era, say the 1950's, when white superiority was taken for granted and everyone was expected to be Christian. They think the country is being taken over by non-Christians, non-whites and non-standard sexual orientations and they are willing to support anyone, even the egregious Trump, who they think will support them in reversing history. Democracy is not actually a number-one priority of many people - if they think the things that are really important to them - which may be group welfare or superiority - are in danger they will readily abandon democracy.
The idea that low-income Republican voters are motivated by resentment of economic "elites" is absurd. Republicans all but given up the pretense of having economic policies that benefit anyone but the actual elites, who are mostly Republican.
This will require massive amounts of destruction to the point it's a fundamental implosion of the country.
They want to go back to an era where mommy and daddy protected them, pampered them, kept them from getting into trouble and payed for things.
Taking the US back to the 1950s involves destroying the country as it now exists.
But we liberals, no matter how misguided we think the MAGAnauts are, don't think they're deliberately trying to destroy the country out of sheer malice.
Define "destroy the country." Fireworks on the Fourth of July and Thanksgiving turkey ... no one wants to get rid of those. But free and fair elections? The right has been working overtime to destroy the essence of what this country is all about. Deliberately, and for many years. They want to turn America into a one-party state. The only elections they'll abide are when they win, and undermining our democratic system so that's the only possible outcome. They are bragging about it in Wisconsin. Elsewhere, they're barely more discreet.
If you don't understand that, delete your account.
To them, those "free and fair elections" have failed to provide the stability and control they demand. So the abstraction they hold as "America", which for them of overwhelming, existential importance, overrides democracy as the ultimate good.
And I don't think many of them would deny this. They're demanding it.
Some, I think, genuinely believe that the margin of victory for Democrats is provided by votes of the undocumented and/or the dead. Because that is what they are constantly being told by right-wing media personalities and MAGA politicians. So what liberals see as voter suppression, they see as 'restoring integrity' to elections. Despite masses of evidence that illicit votes are extremely rare.
On the contrary, conservatives do, say, and think the things they do out of malice all too often. As usual, the "they want to destroy the country" crap is 100% projection from the Republicans. They're projecting their worst behavior onto Democrats and liberals because they can't understand anyone who might want to try to improve something and try to govern responsibly, as opposed to governing out of power for power's sake and greed for greed's sake (which Republicans definitely don't have a monopoly on, but Republicans who want to responsibly govern have been extinct for decades).
Reminds me of the Ezra Klein podcast interview with Rod Dreher from a few years back (2019), where Rod Dreher said liberals were "bouncing the rubble" in rural America -- i.e., destroying it with relish.
After a bit of contemplation I realized what he meant was legal abortion and legal gay marriage had overturned rural societies. As he saw it, anyway.
They make noise, these people, but I doubt most Americans agree with this stuff. It works to fire up the base, but you need more than base to win in America. (Of course in off year elections, Repubs may win simply because they're the "alternative".)
Farmers and competition destroyed the farm towns. The needed fewer and fewer people to work the farms, so few people are around to support businesses in town. Kids don't stay on the farm, there's no job for them, so go off to college and leave for good. That builds up a lot of resentment.
Versions of this is happening in rust belt too. The Bork memo did away with enforcement of anti-trust and monopoly laws (ok, maybe a little extreme), so companies consolidated, did get more efficient, but also were able to break unions, shed jobs, and ship work overseas.
See also: https://blog.boydmetals.com/the-past-present-and-future-of-the-american-steel-industry
Instead of sharing in the increase in wealth efficiency brings, workers just get laid off. Strong unions won't be able to keep all the jobs, but can at least see that some of the riches get to the workers.
Yeah, makes sense. Certainly it's "capitalism" one way or another that has made life hard in rural America, not abortion or gay marriage. How to get that message across is a tough one.
Thankfully, it is difficult to convey the message that Marxism is superior to capitalism. Rural areas have been losing population for decades. Now, I could support a national program to ensure that people living in these areas have access to high-speed internet and reasonable shipping via subsidizing the post office or providing shipping costs using UPS/FedEx/ DSL cost the same as in cities. The gig economy means that people do not have to be farmers to live in a pleasant, less populated area.
"National program' for rural high-speed Internet? Subsidies? Sounds like creeping socialism to me!! I kid! I kid! But please, there is a lot of daylight between laissez-faire capitalism and Marxism.
I don’t think the MAGAnauts are “misguided”, I think they are lunatics.
don't insult the Moon like that!
Well, I certainly don’t care for the GOP vision for, or understanding of, America. It’s too aligned with the former Confederacy to be worthy of admiration— bigoted, corrupt, dishonest, cheap, culturally/scientifically/intellectually lacking, etc. There isn’t much to admire in that, and I wouldn’t expend energy or risk anything of value to preserve it. Every society has some provincial segments, but an advanced country needs at least a bit of imagination and motivation.
Good catch! The confederate (traitor) elites wanted to keep everyone else ignorant and bigoted (etc), since it made it easier for them to retain disproportionate power. Clearly, this is how the Qpublican Party now operates.
My God Kevin, this is so easy, you don't even need a chart for f-s sake!
Some days I simply cannot get over the current political asymmetry. Dems are just not idiots. When I hear every candidate, all Dems, for LA Mayor say "and I will take care of the homeless problem by ....." I know, because I am not an idiot, that none of them are even remotely going to "take care" of the homeless problem if you define "take care" as actually, you know, solving it. I know this, all Dems know that like 99% of political rhetoric is aspirational, not literal.
The Repubs just say what they literally will do. Make abortion illegal? Yes, they are going to ban it. "Make abortion illegal" isn't some code for something else.
Unrestricted access to guns? That doesn't mean less restrictions, it means no restrictions.
Didn't eveyone wake up when Trump said "build a wall on the southern border" and we all realized that both he, and his moron followers actually meant a big ass physical wall?
So, the reason that libs don't think conservatives are out to destroy America is that the concept of a politician, in America "destroying America" is non sensical. We keep thinking, like in Kevin's post yesterday, that the Repubs are actually interested in a broad set of government policy proposals for the good of all. I mean, if it wasn't so sad it would be laughable.
Its like being in a war, advancing on the line of the enemy, and wondering if they are going to shoot you or talk it out. They. Are. Going. To. Shoot. You. It wasn't always this way but it is now.
But for Repubs, destroying America is anything they don't want. Its not even worth a post. Come on!
It’s pointless to debate the all those assertions of diabolical liberal malfeasance. The question for liberals is now on the table… why bother? When so many really just despise you and everything about you? Why bother? It’s not worth it.
I miss our Swedish visitor. He'd certainly have a few cogent things to say.
Why would he need to be here when basically everything that is happening proves his points? Not everyone enjoys saying "I told you so".
Seriously, I hope he is still well and enjoying life in what appears to be a mostly sane country.
Why would he need to be here when basically everything that is happening proves his points?
Actually, why would he be here when recent events in Sweden undermine his claims about Nordic superiority? Turns out Swedes are racists fucks at about the same rate as Yanks. They've just got a better constitution.
Also, there's really no "I told you so" at play. Sven basically delighted in visiting a discussion board overwhelmingly populated by folks who share a world-view similar to his—for the pure pleasure of dunking on us about the inadequacies of our polity. I could see the merit of his visiting a MAGA-infested site, for instance, to give those folks an education about how things could be better if they changed their voting behavior. But that wasn't his M.O. At all. I'm enjoying the break, frankly, though I'm sure it'll be over soon, and he'll be back to stomp on the grave of American democracy. Nice guy, our Swedish "friend."
Fascism isn't coming, it's been here for decades.
There are a few exceptions Steve Bannon DOES want to destroy America, he's said so. He wants to build something fundamentally different in its place and do that extant US has to die.
They don't actualy believe this, it's just a narrative of convenience.
It's all about intention, isn't it? (I haven't read many of the comments yet)
Even if you could make the case to both points of view that each only wanted to transform the nation into what their view of what it should be, is just euphemism for destroy. But it's the why that matters more, for evolution and change will come no matter how violently you struggle. And this is the crux: is your intention to expand liberty or constrain it, to ease suffering or multiply it, to hear, listen, and understand or drown out, deafen, and reject. And by the actions we've all witnessed you can you tell the position of each of the parties.
"But we liberals, no matter how misguided we think the MAGAnauts are, don't think they're deliberately trying to destroy the country out of sheer malice."
Um . . . progressives do.
A recurring phenomenon, in which Kevin has a sane liberal moment, and his commenters generally denounce him and proclaim that the insane liberals are actually correct.
Hmm... "Insane liberals" with no evidence offered.
Here's some evidence about insane Republicans:
U.S. Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) told Trump supporters at a Sioux City, Iowa rally Thursday that Paul Pelosi is to blame for his own assault,.....
I don't expect to hear of any Republicans denouncing this. Certainly not ey81.
I don't expect Kevin Drum to cease and desist from his "empathetic" and "understanding" take on Republican cynicism and insanity.
That is, except for graphs on aspects of the US economy, I find that Kevin Drum has little truth to offer on his site.
Conservatives are mentally ill and easily exploited.
I think the dynamic Kevin talks about here has three different flavors:
1) The truly delusional You've seen pictures of these heavily tattooed folks at MAGA rallies. They also account for an oversized share of the people wearing Viking horns who attacked the capitol. They view Trump as a God-Emperor.
2) The semi delusional. They probably know deep down inside that MAGA is mostly horseshit, but they're very good at convincing themselves that the narrative about Democrats is correct. A lot of people are quite good at lying to themselves. My guess is this accounts for the largest swath of today's Republican footsoldiers. In the main they're really not bad people, they're just not very self-reflective, and dare not really, truly think deeply about the ramifications of handing total power to the hard right. Can't happen here!
3) The cynical manipulators. People like Steve Bannon, Elon Musk, Roger Stone and Peter Thiel are to be found in this last group. There are also plenty of perfectly intelligent high earners (Wall Street types, etc). They're not fond of democracy. They view the MAGA hordes as tools, and nothing more. They're smug and glib, and haven't got the memo explaining that autocracy is seldom good for people like them. Just ask Jack Ma.
This.
"This is why they fight back so viciously. You would too if you believed this."
Kevin, this sounds an awful lot like you are defending people who are doing bad things because they think they are doing the right thing.
If I were Fox, I would publish this all day.
Maybe spare a word or two to condemn the lies and the liars, and the people who want to believe the lies for personal reasons.
we liberals, no matter how misguided we think the MAGAnauts are, don't think they're deliberately trying to destroy the country out of sheer malice.
Speak for yourself, Kevin. A sometime "moderate," I've seen MAGA support of Putin, their hero-worship of a medium-time con man, and their gleeful embrace of voter suppression and police brutality.
And I think they're deliberately trying to destroy the country out of sheer malice. They're doing so in order to raise up their own little Russia, with a Putin clone in charge and the secret police dedicated to smothering dissent.
I think this is the sort of thing where what you see depends on where you stand...
For example
- I don't think it's unfair to say that there is a non-negligible fraction of "liberals" who consider the "war on drugs" a bad idea and want to "liberalize" many to all controlled substances AND
- I don't think it's unfair to say that many "conservatives", for various reasons (some informed by history, some informed by their models of human nature, some informed by religious sensibility) consider that such a change would, in fact, completely change the nature of the United States.
But this is something where you will not even see the viewpoint of the other side if you don't make an effort; or if you simply mock their opinions about *everything* as irrelevant nonsense (in this case just mocking their opinions on how drugs can/will affect society)...