A couple of days ago I asked, "Where are all the tunnels?" A reader points me to a recent Wall Street Journal article that includes this map:
This makes things even more mysterious. The Journal's map is several years old, but it comes from the Israeli military and presumably they have more current ones. But if this map is actually accurate, it suggests that Israel has no need to hunt for tunnels or to destroy vast swaths of Gaza looking for them. The IDF already knows exactly where they are.
This jibes with the news that the IDF is getting ready to flood the tunnels. You can hardly do that unless you know where they are.
So this redoubles my question: If Israel already knows where most of the tunnels are, why are they razing entire city blocks hunting for them? And where are the huge caches of guns and bombs and food and fuel? Do they really know where the tunnels are but are unwilling to actually go into them?
Mysteriouser and mysteriouser.
It is a mystery. Looks like this carpet bombing (it looks like that to me) is all about degrading every bit of Gaza. The military and the people there. Their economy. The health system. You can't accidently do this much damage.
They are serving up a round of whoop ass punishment for 10/7. This cycle continues until either side says enough, so....
They are razing whole city blocks because they want to raze whole city blocks
Yeah, this. It's not a mystery whatsoever.
And its gonna hand Trump the presidency
I think the term is collective punishment. I used to believe the IDF but I now believe a combination of Netanyahu and being an occupaying army in the West Bank for so long has corrupted them.
It would be reasonable to infer that several years ago, when this map was drawn, Israeli intelligence knew where the mapped tunnel networks were. It seems unlikely that they had mapped all the tunnels in existence at that time, and it is entirely possible that new ones have been constructed since then.
Even granting this, how does it explain what the IDF is doing? If one knew where at least some of the tunnels were, wouldn't one start there with the dogs and robots, to clean them out? (Knowing there was an extensive network of tunnels, of course one would have prepared for fighting in them ....).
How many dogs trained for tunnel warfare do you think the IDF has? How many can they afford to lose?
Robots are more scalable but less flexible.
Neither can open a locked blast proof door.
They've known about the tunnels all along. Demolishing whole city blocks is about displacing tens of thousands of civilians to show what can happen when they let Hamas aka the Muslim Brotherhood do what they want and attack Israel.
I think the US did not expect this level of savagery, but Bibi wanted this and so do his partners in Likud and in government.
I think it's time for the US to stop vetoing UN resolutions against Israeli atrocities. Just vote present and let them feel the heat.
Please provide your evidence that Israel is leveling while city blocks. As far as I can tell, they target individual buildings and a whole block only gets leveled when Hamas decides to fight for it and Israel has to clear it building by building.
BTW, how many city blocks did the Allies level in German cities in WWII? Was that also savagery? If not, why are you holding Israel to a different standard? Anti-Semitic much?
Finally, your claim that this is Likud and Netanyahu is charmingly naive. Hamas did not just murder 1200 Israelis on Oct 7. They also murdered the Israeli peace movement. It's dead Jim.
In 2011 the Israeli government was forced by public opinion to release over 1000 Palestinian prisoners in return for Glad Shalit. Many of them were among the planners and perpetrators of Oct 7.
Now Hamas holds over 100 Israelis prisoner. Israel is not even discussing an exchange. It is fighting a war to eliminate Hamas and hopefully get the prisoners released or rescued as Hamas disintegrates. Everyone understands Hamas may just kill them. So be it.
"I think it's time for the US to stop vetoing UN resolutions against Israeli atrocities. Just vote present and let them feel the heat."
I know there is an instinctive desire by part of the Democratic Party to abandon every US ally. Luckily, in this case, Bidden seems to recognize that this would guarantee Trump the presidency.
Yes, it was savagery you dolt. The atrocities of WWI and II are exactly why the geneva conventions became the international standard. Now those conventions are likely going to become just another casualty of Isreal's cruelty.
And just to anticipate the childish "what about Hamas" you would undoubtedly throw out: Hamas militants have also committed gross violations of the geneva conventions. The difference is that they do not have a permanent member of the security council telling them not to worry about it and openly providing weapons.
Tunnel warfare is extremely dangerous. I doubt that all the tunnels are large like we see in some news stories. More like smaller offshoots and rabbit holes. Darkness, booby-traps, mines, smoke, gas, you can expect a a lot of casualties, particularly when your enemy is a “martyr”. As I mentioned before, I knew a guy who did that in Vietnam. Killed people in hand to hand combat in the dark with knives. He came out of it one messed up dude.
This is the 21st century. There are robots, drones, ground-penetrating radar, night-vision devices ...
Yeah, high tech equipment served Israel so well on October 7th, right?
Revenge is best served at 5,000 feet?
Not only is Israel destroying whole city blocks, with any Palestinian civilians that may be caught in the bombardment; they are now flooding the whole tunnel system with seawater. But this will kill any of the Sacred Israeli Hostages!! ... But so what? It will also have the effect of contaminating the water table throughout Gaza.
They don't want anyone to be able to live there anymore.
Netanyahu has committed to 'destroying' Hamas, has rejected any role for the Palestinian Authority or Fatah in Gaza, and says Israel will not reoccupy or resettle it. Rendering it uninhabitable and forcing Gazans to flee to Egypt seems to be the plan.
If you don't want your water table contaminated, do not build tunnel complexes to fight wars from and then attack your neighbors.
Alternatively, Hamas can just surrender.
FFS. The story most (all) of Kevin's commenters are going with is, "Israel could've just killed Hamas fighters. They've been razing Gaza instead because they're bloodthirsty and looking for any excuse to kill children.
Because as we all know, Jews use the blood of children for their dark rituals, right?
This conclusion is leapt to on the strength of a map from years ago, of *supposed* tunnels. There's no chance at all that some or most of that map are decoy tunnels or tunnels that were abandoned and turned into decoys once they were detected, meant to entrap Israeli attackers. Nope, it would've been simple for Israel to waltz on in. That they didn't proves they want to drink baby's blood.
Agreed. The amount of "let's assume the worst about Israel without really knowing what is going on in terms of targeting decisions and how many bombs are dropping where" among commentators on this site is just sad, and it is also sad to see Kevin kind of joining them.
I am slightly worried because the US Government is starting to caution Israel to try to be more careful and unlike the commenters on these pages who reflexively assume the worst about Israeli actions (and turn a blind eye towards what Hamas does), they actually have facts and information to support their positions.
"Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since October 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment.
The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says."
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html#:~:text=Nearly%20half%20of%20the%20air,a%20new%20US%20intelligence%20assessment.
I think the US has the data to back up their changing position towards Israel.
Yeah, like I said... so you are agreeing with me, right?
Yes, I am agreeing with you. I misread the second paragraph of your comment.
Unguided bombs are still pretty accurate when delivered by modern planes and Israel does not have an unlimited supply of smart bombs.
We are not assuming. Some of the information has originated with, or been confirmed by Israeli government sources. The cutoff of water, power, fuel and goods including food and medication was announced policy; the humanitarian aid allowed in subsequently has been far short of that needed, as attested by NGOs. Videos and photos of the damage from aerial attacks are on the internet.
No one here has 'turned a blind eye' to Hamas' atrocities. But Hamas can do nothing more at this point against Israeli civilians except fire unguided rockets, as they have been doing for years to minimal effect. The civilians suffering now are a hundred-plus hostages of various nationalities, and two million Palestinians displaced and/or short of food, water and shelter.
This WSJ report cites Israeli claims to have killed 'several thousand' Hamas militants: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-hamas-war-enters-deadlier-phase-with-more-close-combat/ar-AA1lr7aO -- while reportedly 18,000 Gazans have died. At this rate, 'eradicating' Hamas could cost 100,000 civilian lives.
1) Hamas has invited... no more like SOUGHT these civilian deaths by deliberately placing its weapons and fighters among civilians and deliberately committing acts to outrage and provoke the Israelis. The blood is on the hands of Hamas, and they are pleased with all the "martyrs." But all I hear is Isreal this and Israel that. I am not a fan of what they are doing on the West Bank, they need to get the hell out of there, and Netanyahu is an MFer, but in Gaza, Hamas is the guilty party.
2) We should all be rooting for the destruction of Hamas. They are an Islamist death cult which opposes pretty much all that we consider decent in the Western World (religious tolerance, democracy, women's rights, freedom of speech and expression, etc). They are actively seeking to kill Israelis and Jews because they are Jews, and would be fine with killing you or I. They are oppressing the Gazans and put them in harms way by firing rockets out of the apartment buildings where the Gazans live. Palestinians certainly deserve their own state, but Hamas is not the road to get there. But nobody seems to be saying a thing about it. (I don't know about you personally, just speaking generally about what I hear)
That's what I hear and read when I see the endless complaints about Israel in Kevin's comment section and nary a peep about Hamas.
There can be more than one guilty party in Gaza. Given 1) the Israeli government's own claims that Hamas is sheltering in the tunnels, leaving civilians exposed to bombing; and 2) that the Israelis have known of the existence of the tunnels for many years. why is there so much bombing and so little apparent effort to clear out the tunnels? Surely the IDF has had plenty of time to acquire robots, train explosive-sniffing dogs, and whatever else it takes to fight underground. Blocking entrances seems to be their preferred method, but that does little damage to an interconnected network.
The current IDF campaign, causing a high rate of civilian casualties, risks creating more terrorists than it kills -- Hamas recruits among friends and family of dead Gazans. In my view, Israel is guilty of setting the stage for future terrorist attacks against its own citizens and visitors. Peter Beinart https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/12/13/is-there-any-path-to-stop-the-violence-in-gaza and Sec. Austin, among others, have warned of this risk.
The destruction of Hamas is nothing to be wished for if it gives rise to a successor as bad or worse. Better to aim to undermine Hamas, to deprive it of its base of support, to work toward an alternative future for Palestinians.
Actually the reason Palestinian terrorism has lasted is that the world has never allowed Israel to properly beat them.
Compare with Germany and Japan. How much of a problem was revanchist Nazi and Imperial Japanese terrorism despite far more deaths?
The Marshall Plan included aid to Germany, which returned to self-government in 1949. The U.S. also assisted in Japan’s recovery, and self-government returned in 1952. Israel has occupied and/or controlled Gaza and the West Bank since 1967, and has never agreed to restoring sovereignty to the Palestinians. Pretty significant differences.
Every time I read something like this I want to laugh.
Why do you think Israel has an obligation to allow any humanitarian aid into Gaza at all? How much humanitarian aid did the Allies allow into Germany and Japan during WWII? Why are the rules always different for the Jews?
I think if you had just been born in a different part of the world you would have made such a fine, fine terrorist. You have the perfect mix of blind tribalism and monstrous inhumanity.
no need to assume anything
there is 2 months of action to reflect upon
No one is turning a blind eye to what Hamas is doing
Get a grip or be less of a lazy, MAGAesque simpleton
I hope anyone who supports Israel is reading this. To the left you are MAGAesque.
In a year you will get to vote. You can choose between a party united in its super for Israel and one that is tearing itself apart over the issue. Go full MAGA.
"No puppet, you're the puppet."
Look at the comments posted here and the protests... yes, people are pretty much ignoring Hamas. Really, anyone who is protesting or criticizing civilian casualties in Gaza should be angry as hell at Hamas. But nope.
And I happen to be a normie Dem who loathes MAGAland. But keep it up with the gratuitous and unfounded personal insults. It's the arrogant dismissiveness of people you disagree with like that like that that turns people MAGAwards.
But it has been widely reported that weapons aren't being kept in large depots where they could be captured or destroyed all at once but distributed, and distributed so thoroughly that every building, if not every apartment, has weapons hidden in it where fighters can just dash in anywhere and grab something.
Exactly what you would do if you were planning for urban warfare, and consequently every building becomes a target.
and yet, still no weapons caches
just a few boxes of dates
but someone has to carry the water I suppose
How many have to die because this pea-brained idiot doesn't care?
Bear in mind that, by international conventions, the military value of an action must justify the risk to civilians. I think it is difficult to justify bombing a house or apartment building to try to take out a cache of small arms.
But, by international standards, a building becomes a military target when it's being used for military purposes, and you can't say that those buildings that have been flattened weren't being actively used.
Not being there, I certainly can't say one way or the other. But unless the IDF were taking fire from a civilian building, dropping a bomb on it would violate conventions on armed conflict.
If the only legitimate reason to kill innocent people is to save a larger number of innocent people -- which is my general position -- the whole Gaza assault is unjustified.
The October 7 attacks were possible because Israel let its guard down. They could pretty much stop the ground portion of any similar attack just by having troops better stationed around Gaza, and then they could just do pinpoint attacks to take out any missile launch sites, and a lot of the missiles fired they'd intercept.
The additional effect in saving innocent Israeli lives of doing the wholesale bombing and invasion of Gaza is very, very small.
And they'll probably have killed 30,000 innocent Gazans when all is said and done.
So the main reason they are killing so many innocent Gazans is that they want to.
For reference, during the entire 46 year reign of Apartheid in South Africa -- which has about six times the population of Israel and the Occupied Territories -- the total estimated number of people killed on either side of the armed struggle is around 21,000.
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You are welcome to take that position, but it is completely unsupported in international law. There is no upper bound on the number of innocent people you can kill in pursuit of a legitimate military objective. The only limit is proportionality. In practice, we also look at why the civilians are at risk. You do not get to fight a war with immunity against attack by holding women and children in every military facility. The purpose of the laws of war is to reduce the impact of war on civilians, not to incent groups like Hamas to use civilians as magic shields against attack.
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That is a really stupid comparison. The South African government never used women and children as human shields and then surrendered while under far less pressure than Hamas is today. There was never a single major urban battle during the entire conflict.
It isn't mysterious at all. It is collective punishment. The Israeli government was even up front about that at the beginning of the war. Then they figured out that describing their policy honestly was stupid.
"If Israel already knows where most of the tunnels are, why are they razing entire city blocks hunting for them?"
good grief.
there is no mystery here
That map is of the tunnels that Israel claimed to have previously destroyed, not the map of the Hamas tunnel system.
There are more than 1000 tunnels connecting Egypt and the Gaza Strip, most of which are in plain sight of the Egyptian border guards.
You, and most people, are observing from a naive POV.
The border between Gaza and Egypt is 12km long. If there are 1000 tunnels that would mean that there is one tunnel every 12 meters. Since tunnels have width, you are basically claiming that there are more tunnels than dirt between Gaza and Egypt. This seems absurd.
Technically, it's 14KM long. But anyway, it might seem absurd, but those tunnels are, in fact, one after another, covered in tarps. At one point, there were over 2000.
For references: (1), (2), (3) -- look at photo #2
Here's something of an answer:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-uncovers-largest-ever-hamas-attack-tunnel-near-northern-gaza-border-crossing/
To judge from the article this was a *very* large tunnel, previously unknown.
Also mentioned are discovery (implying no previous knowledge) of 800 tunnel shafts.
For everyone's edification, for what it's worth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kUAwmvEQAo&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia