The Wall Street Journal reports that the Israeli army is beginning its destruction of the Vast Labyrinth™ of tunnels underneath Gaza:
Israel’s military has begun pumping seawater into Hamas’s vast complex of tunnels in Gaza, according to U.S. officials briefed on the Israeli military’s operations, part of an intensive effort to destroy the underground infrastructure that has underpinned the group’s operations.
....Israeli officials say that Hamas’s underground system has been key to its operations on the battlefield. The tunnel system, they say, is used by Hamas to maneuver fighters across the battlefield and store the group’s rockets and munitions, and enables the group’s leaders to command and control their forces. Israel also believes some hostages are being held inside tunnels.
I have a question about this. I've seen video of the tunnels under Al-Shifa hospital, which were built by Israel itself back in the day, as well as video of smuggling tunnels between Gaza and Egypt in the southern city of Rafah. In addition, I've seen a report or two about the discovery of a few smallish tunnels (one kilometer or less). But that's it, and I've heard nothing about finding anything aside from "several" grenades and AK-47s.
Now, I don't expect the IDF to share its intelligence with me, but if they've really found hundreds of miles of tunnels full of soldiers and materiel I'd expect to see at least a little bit of leaked reporting about it. They were certainly eager enough to share video of the tunnels under Al-Shifa.
So what am I missing here? Are there really hundreds of miles of tunnels all over Gaza? Are they really full of rockets and bombs and guns? Does Hamas really hide there? Israel says it doesn't want to send soldiers into the tunnels because it might be dangerous, but that hardly makes sense. They're searching for hostages, aren't they?
Somebody please educate me.
Yeah, the Al Sharif thing was a bit of a disappointment.
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If by disappointment you mean lie, then sure.
One of the Russian propaganda outlets got a guided tour of Hamas' tunnels at least a month ago (or at least, they published the tour video then; they might have gotten their tour much, much earlier). The tunnels they showed were pretty extensive.
Those tunnels were probably an old mine in Russia or something.
At least you labelled it accurately: propaganda.
My understanding is they are generally too dangerous to explore. Soldiers are sitting ducks in an underground lair prepared by enemy.
They've generally been sealing them off when they find entrances, and of course this idea of filling them with seawater to "flush" out any defenders
Hey we got drones now.
If they filled the tunnel with sleepy gas, wouldn't that be as effective?
The cynic in me says no, because drowning is a more traumatic death than OD-ing on sleeping gas would be. But even the pragmatist in me says no, seawater also would destroy more stuff left down there than sleeping gas does. Flooding the tunnels also makes sure there are no hostages down there anymore, which is probably a feature not a bug for Bibi.
Its likely that the long-lost Iraqi WMDs are also in those tunnels. So, its complicated and we just need to be patient.
+1
Well, Palestinians (and Iran) have been bragging about the tunnel network for the better part of a decade, so they're unlikely to be quite as mythical as the Iraqi WMDs. Hell, there's even a wikipedia page!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip
I have a brother (now retired) who served in the military, including several years in US Special Forces both in Iraq and Afghanistan. To the best of my knowledge, my brother has no, first hand, knowledge (I am not aware he has ever been to Israel or worked with that country's soldiers, but who knows) but I did ask him about a month ago, in VERY broad terms, about the tunnels.
He said, 'the Israeli military is very smart about protecting its soldiers. They will use technology and dogs extensively. Seldom will an Israeli solder enter a tunnel without a lot of non-human reconnaissance.'
Also, this is MY speculation, Israel is likely pretty tight to the vest in releasing information about their military capability: for example, Israel still will not admit to having nuclear weapons....
I'd agree, except....commercial drones, including those for search and rescue, can be used.
Drones depend on radio communication, which can be a problem underground.
There's no way to solve that of course, as I type on my phone in a subway tunnel...
(Snark aside, yes, I understand that being able to use cell phones underground is different, because the tunnels were pre-lined with receivers every so many feet. However, I doubt that there is zero communicative or imaging technology developed by the US and given to the Israelis that cannot work in tunnels.)
Cellular coverage is *highly* variable. The university I work for has extensive in-building cellular via Distribute Antennae System (DAS). And this is just because of people complaining about poor cell phone coverage.
I suspect there's probably something for a relatively straight tunnel. But throw in a 90 degree turn and you quickly lose your line-of-sight, and now you're relying on how much the signal can bounce around unless you have something to help repeat or direct the signal.
So long as Bibi is in charge we will get the truth when it's convenient and propaganda the rest of the time.
I love the idea of flooding them. Hope it works.
not great if hostages are there.
Justin doesn't care about hostages. He doesn't care about anyone or anybody else in the world.
I heard about the flooding idea from an American consultant several weeks ago on NPR and wondered if they would do that.
No firsthand knowledge, but I've been hearing about the extensive network of tunnels in Gaza for as long as I can remember, at least back to the 70s-80s.
I've been seeing that virtually every building, and sometimes every room, has a cache of weapons in it, so when they're not finding that many at once it's because they're distributed.
Flooding extensive tunnels with sea water is salting the earth.
I don't know how extensive the tunnels are, and am suspicious about how solid they are. But it certainly seems that Hamas hides in them, and that they have managed to hide hundreds of hostages in them. Those hostages that have been released have not complained about mistreatment by Hamas beyond the damage of living without sunshine for so long in the tunnels (that and the terror of hearing the Israeli bombs land around them).
It also seems true that fighting in tunnels takes away an advantage of the superior weaponry of the Israelis. I remember there was an incident in the 2014 flare-up in which Hamas and Israel reached a temporary ceasefire and the next day Israel announced that Hamas had broken the ceasefire by ambushing their troops. It later came out that the "ambush" occurred in a tunnel in Gaza City where Israel was carrying out military operations during a ceasefire, when it came upon Hamas fighters in the tunnels they were going to destroy and they got killed. It is that kind of incident that likely has Israel not wanting to send soldiers into the tunnels. But flooding them to kill Hamas members seems like a good way to kill hostages.
Assumes Bibi actually wants to save the hostages. But some men watch movies like Speed and think "shoot the hostage" is actually always the smartest move when dealing with terrorists. And Bibi certainly enjoys a lot more power as long as the war goes on...
There's a map right in the article that makes the tunnel system look extensive to me especially if you assume that's just the main tunnels and not the side tunnels. Of course it could be BS. IDK.
Locating the remaining hostages, who may well not turn out not to be as numerous as claimed, does not seem to be the first priority for Bibi
The Israeli government attitude towards the remaining hostages seems to be, "Sucks to be them."
Hamas still having hostages does give Bibi an excuse to keep destroying Gaza ostensibly to rescue them. If Hamas had no more hostages, the need to "do everything we can to save them" would go away...
Does the WSJ say hundreds of miles, or is that your interpretation of an otherwise ambiguous term “vast?”
Well, almost a decade ago the PLA said the tunnel network was "twice the size" of the Viet Cong Cu Chi network, which was itself 75 miles. Assuming Hamas managed to expand that even a little, "hundreds" of miles would be accurate.
Vice News got exclusive access back in 2021. Vice News' Isobel Yeung talked about it again w/ CBC last month.
I find it troubling that you are sowing doubt about something that has long been a given and for which Hamas has itself claimed.
Did you actually watch the CBC video? The chyron for the last half of it was “Unclear how complex and vast the underground tunnel network used by Hamas is.” That’s KD’s question. I find it troubling that you can’t be bothered to watch the video you think provides the answer you want. Her report from two years ago don’t address how many miles it is. She was blindfolded and had access to an area no more than a hundred meters long.
No, that's not KD's question. KD's question is, if the Hamas tunnels are vast, why haven't we seen any evidence of them?
Her access was more than "a hundred meters long". She mentioned that it was a maze with multiple junctions. Maybe you conflated her statement that the tunnel she entered was 90 meters below the surface?
I posted this previously: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/11/10/world/europe/hamas-gaza-tunnels.html
I have trouble making sense of this. If the tunnel system is as deep and extensive as this article asserts, Israel's bombs can't do much damage to it; closing entrances won't trap anyone until essentially all of them are covered. Also, the Times article states that Hamas has equipment to dig new exits prepositioned in the tunnels. Flooding them has been tried before by the IDF, and Hamas apparently has countermeasures (watertight barriers, according to Al Jazeera https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/analysis-has-the-approach-to-tunnel-warfare-changed-for-israel-and-hamas/ar-AA1lknQ1 ); and it risks drowning hostages.
Hamas' use of tunnels is long known, so the IDF must have been prepared with trained dogs and robots; yet after weeks they have not shown evidence of the command center they were certain lay beneath al-Shifa Hospital. There seems a distinct possibility that the IDF was victimized by Hamas disinformation. As they clearly were about the October 7 terroristic attacks.
“If the tunnel system is as deep and extensive as this article asserts, Israel's bombs can't do much damage to it.”
Yes, Israel justifies some of its bombing on the basis that there are tunnels underneath the buildings it is bombing, but I haven't seen any indication that Israeli bombs have actually succeeded in destroying any tunnels.
“There seems a distinct possibility that the IDF was victimized by Hamas disinformation. As they clearly were about the October 7 terroristic attacks.”
It wouldn't be surprising if Hamas has tried to feed Israel disinformation, but I haven’t seen any reporting indicating that the IDF or the Israeli government was taken in by disinformation.
I was thinking particularly about the command center that the IDF expected to find. Clearly nothing of much significance lay underneath the al-Shifa Hospital, or the Israelis would certainly be showing evidence. Hamas may have hoped that an IDF attack on the hospital would be the provocation that would bring Hezbollah and/or Iran to fight along with them, or at least to turn world opinion against Israel.
With the vast warren of tunnels "under Shifa" I would have expected to see something other than a few snapshots of some holes in the ground.
You are correct about the Israeli bombs: the tunnels are supposedly 30 to 70 meters deep and the best the bombs can do is, perhaps, 20 meters. This is pretty well known.
I’m confused. Aren’t there supposed to be some Jewish hostages hidden in the tunnels? Won’t they be drowned if the IDF flood the tunnels…
Sure. But Bibi will just insist that they were killed by "Hamas" when the IDF flooding drowns them. The old wife batterer argument. "Baby, look what you made me do to you!"
It's like how Republicans never do anything about fixing the border or the deficit when they have control of Congress and the White House... conveniently saving both as issues with which to beat over the heads of Democrats later on. "We have to do everything we can to save the hostages" is a potent rhetorical weapon for Bibi in dealing with his political opponents and staving off criminal prosecution.
Either the media is falling down yet again and ignoring the reports of the destruction of the Hamas underground infrastructure, the Israelis are failing down on the winning of hearts and minds without photographic proof of the IDF crushing the life out of the murderers under collapsed tunnels, or I'm not reading the right reports out of Haaretz, or the tunnels aren't as extensive and impressive as we were lead to believe. These tunnels probably are like the turret of a T72 of the 4th Guards Tank Division.
Did you just make a WoT reference?
Whatever the Israelis say and whatever pictures they show there will be plenty of people, including some here, who will say it is faked and staged in some way.
I have seen various reports of tunnels including a recent one indicating two Israeli bodies were recovered. The way it is apparently being done is certain parts are “cleared” and destroyed. They are mined and booby-trapped so it is a slow and dangerous process. Back in the 70’s I worked with a guy who did that in Vietnam, including hand to hand combat in the dark with knives. Boy was he messed up!
This reminds me of a NYT article during the first year of Bush's war on Afghanistan. It depicted OBL's lair at Tora Bora as an elaborate complex with a launchpad for helicopters and lots of other crazy shit. It looked like something out of a James Bond flick. Of course, reality was much more mundane.
It's cliche but true -- the truth is the first casualty of war.
The word "spider hole" comes to mind. That would be a hell of a place to launch a helicopter from.
When has a Netanyahu government ever told the truth about anything?
JJ Goldberg (previously an editor @ Jewish Forward): "As for English-language reporting on the issue, nothing captures the insipid quality more vividly than an exchange yesterday on the revered PBS News Hour. Anchor Gwen Ifill started it off with a question to a Washington pundit, opening with the observation that Israel regards the tunnels as a strategic threat while Hamas considers them an economic lifeline. She’s talking about two entirely distinct and dissimilar sets of tunnels. The ones leading south into the Sinai city of Rafah were the economic lifeline. They’ve been demolished by Egypt, which was able to locate them on its side of the border because the openings were cargo loading and unloading zones. The ones leading east into Israel are entirely useless as economic channels, leading only to empty fields near Israeli villages and IDF installations. They’re entirely military in nature. Israel can’t easily find them on its side of the fence because they’re not opened until an attack is mounted. Hence the technology dilemma."
Jennifer Rubin @ WaPo: "Israel should be forthcoming in providing evidence of its efforts to protect patients and doctors. That is how the laws of war operate, with specificity and attention to the intent of the parties. However, efforts to characterize the [al-Shifa] hospital siege in and of itself as proof of Israeli 'war crimes' were inaccurate; media accounts should reflect that and underscore the falsity of information they were given."
Seth Mandel @ Commentary: "Hamas can be defeated. Yes, Israel and the West possess the capabilities to do this. And yes, it has been done before. The final ingredient is national will—and that part is up to Israel and Israel alone."
Bret Stephens @ NYT: "[W]hat is antisemitism? It’s a conspiracy theory that holds that Jews are uniquely prone to use devious means to achieve malevolent ends and must therefore be opposed by any means necessary, including violence."
Tomer Persico @ Persuasion: "Antisemitism is like that. It’s not simply hatred of Jews, but the identification of Jews with the gravest depth of sin. If it’s not the killing of the messiah, it’s the ritualistic slaughter of children in medieval blood libels. If it’s not the greedy exploitation of the poor, it’s defiling the pure, superior Volk. If it’s not capitalism, it’s communism. If it’s not rootlessness, it’s colonialism."
Chuck Schumer @ Congress: "I have noticed a significant disparity between how Jewish people regard the rise of antisemitism, and how many of my non-Jewish friends regard it. To us, the Jewish people, the rise of antisemitism is a crisis — a five-alarm fire that must be extinguished. For so many other people of good will, it is merely a problem, a matter of concern ... Not long ago, many of us marched together for Black and Brown lives, we stood against anti-Asian hatred, we protested bigotry against the LGBTQ community, we fought for reproductive justice out of the recognition that injustice against one oppressed group is injustice against all. But apparently, in the eyes of some, that principle does not extend to the Jewish people."
The far Left is exerting every ounce of whatever influence and political capital it can muster - not to fight the totalitarian regime of Putin, not to stand up to the authoritarian rule of China, not even to resist the fascist movement led here at home by Trump - but to instigate hatred against Jews. And if you want to utilize whatever free speech you still have to engage in gaslighting and assert that Leftists oppose Israel, not all Jews, all I can say is that I treasure the freedom you wield to reveal yourself as a fool.
The self-righteous Lefty idiots in academia, "progressive" organizations, and other "intersectional" and "anti-racist" outposts have done more to revive racial and ethnic animosity than any other group in our nation's modern history. If they ever gain significant control of the Dem party, I'll then become an independent. And I think there may be a significant possibility that Biden could be the last Dem president I vote for (at least for another generation or so). VP Harris, for example, has openly embraced her role as a DEI operative: a Divisive, Essentialist, Identitarian. If she ever runs against a Republican, I'd simply have no one to vote for.
So every person who is on the Left and still retains sanity needs to resist these Leftists and shun their influence. And Kevin may very well ask a legitimate question as to what sort of info is actually available regarding the tunnels utilized by Hamas. But such questions should not be presented from the perspective of a possible Jewish conspiracy. That perspective reveals the evil influence of Leftists as they do everything they can to infuse our dialog with as much distrust and hatred for Jews as they can.
Please don't feed this troll.
Noted.
@Joel:
George Will @ WaPo: "Today, the desire of Hamas to complete the Holocaust is applauded by moral cretins in academic cocoons (some Princetonians chanted “Globalize the intifada”), too uneducated to understand the grotesque pedigree of their enthusiasm."
Why is it left up to Conservatives like Will to call a spade a spade? Why has this sort of moral clarity vanished from both Liberals and Leftists?
Has Kevin issued even one denunciation of the shockingly evil anti-Semitism that has exploded among Leftists on campus?
I worked at a major hospital that had a (small) network of tunnels beneath its campus for practical reasons (moving equipment and patients around.) I've heard of tunnels under several universities and cities for various reasons. There are plenty of non-nefarious reasons for having tunnels, although admittedly, if they exist, Hamas is probably using them.
But I wouldn't think building massive networks of tunnels just for terrorism makes a ton of sense. You might be able to create some useful little tunnels or some underground storage compounds. But a whole network of tunnels seems like a too much work for too little benefit. There are lots of ways to hide above ground. Terrorists are particularly good at blending in crowds. And a tunneling project that large would probably be detected through surveillance when you build it. Even if you could build it, once enemy forces find any part of it, the whole network is compromised.
I'm guessing it's mostly just use of existing tunnels plus some isolated underground hiding places rather than the vast underground lair we hear described.
Even so. The univeristy campus where I formerly taught had an extensive network of steam tunnels dating back to the turn of the century before last. There are all sorts of lurid rumors about what's actually down there (it's a campus after all and all sorts of mythology gets handed down by the students), and of course some parts are pretty well kept up and equipped, such as the ones that connect the University and VA hospitals, but most of what little I've seen looks pretty basic.
Since their hostages may be the most valuable commodity Hamas has right now, I doubt they would be left to drown in a flooded tunnel. Perhaps the extent of the tunnel network can be estimated based on the volume of sea water it takes to fill them up.
Saying they're flooding these tunnels with water instead of gas strikes me as an excellent pretext for claiming said tunnels were destroyed by said flooding when asked to actually produce, you know, evidence that they ever existed in the first place.
'We had to destroy the evidence which would have exonerated us in order to save innocent lives' has been the go-to for war criminals since time immemorial.
Everyone knows that Egypt flooded some Gaza tunnels years ago, right?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/9/18/egypt-floods-gaza-tunnels-used-for-smuggling
You are, in evenhandedness, bending over backwards to give Israel the benefit of the doubt. A less tolerant, more cynical take:
>> Israel has always been focused on hasbara, on controlling its image, presenting itself as the plucky little underdog against vicious Arab backwardness and using all means to silence its critics and frame the situation
>> It is violently opposed to transparency and any consideration of facts and realities that might challenge its hasbara. Any such is attacked as antisemitism.
>> It is violently opposed to any external challenge to its statecraft while demanding that its subsidy by America continue. To be blunt, shut up and give us everything we tell you to give us.
>> Basically, anything , anything, it does is OK; egregious action, when exposed, is damage controlled, but no corrective action is taken or even considered. Mad dog realpolitik. A nation of Kissingers,
But anyway. I'm Jewish enough for the gas chamber, but Israel has become a millstone around the neck of Jews everywhere. As I've said, did we need to give the goyim a substantive reason to loathe us? It was bad enough when the reason we were persecuted was a bogus reaction to our success, but for the nation that represents us to be pursing apartheid, tyranny, immiseration of its indigenous non-Jews amounting to slow-motion genocide is disastrous.
And saying this will get me attacked as a self-hating Jew.
With the vast warren of tunnels "under Shifa" I would have expected to see something other than a few snapshots of some holes in the ground.
As others pointed out, the tunnels are supposedly 30 to 70 meters deep and the best the Israelis bombs can do is, perhaps, 20 meters. This is pretty well known.
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