Donald Trump decided at the last minute that he would deliver a closing statement at his trial after all. The judge allowed it on condition that Trump stick to the law and the facts, and Trump agreed. This naturally meant nothing. Jonah Bromwich reports in real time:
Trump, speaking into the microphone, says the case goes outside the law and the facts, and that the annual financial statements were perfect. “There wasn’t one witness against us,” Trump says, calling the case a “political witch hunt.”
....“This is a fraud on me,” he says of the case. Engoron is staring stonily at him. The only sound in the courtroom is Trump’s voice and furious typing.
Trump is full stream of consciousness, saying that the case is meant to ensure he does not win again. He is attacking Letitia James, saying she “hates Trump and uses Trump to get elected.” He says that James “found nothing.”
And Trump is now attacking the judge to his face, saying “You can’t listen for more than one minute.” Engoron asks Kise to “control your client.” Trump says “I did nothing wrong,” and says the attorney general “should pay me” for what he’s gone through.
This is standard Trump, but there's still something I don't get. This case has no jury, so Trump's diatribe was heard only by the judge. So what's point? Even Trump isn't deluded enough to think that attacking the judge to his face will help his case.
I suppose he's so far off the rails these days that he doesn't care. The pleasure of launching a rant with reporters around is greater than the pleasure of winning the case. Or maybe he figures it doesn't matter because his pals on the Supreme Court will eventually overturn the verdict—which is pretty clearly going to go against him based on the mountain of evidence and his almost complete lack of a defense.
Anyway, the moral of this story is twofold: (a) Trump is a liar, and (b) he's no longer able to control himself even the tiny bit he could a few years ago. He's losing it.
His comments were for his MAGA cult, not the judge.
Being shut down by the judge is a station of the cross in Trump's martyrdom.
No loss of control here, it is fully intentional.
yes to both MG and TT's comments. trump's an idiot, but he understands the simple facts that 1) he already lost this case and nothing he says matters legally, and 2) his insane rants are what his supporters love and performing one in court will generate more press and adulation from the idiot brigade. he desperately wants and needs to win the election to prevent ending up in prison if he's convicted in his criminal cases.
All the three of you missed the point. He is threatening the judge, and other judges, juries and prosecutors.
i think he's doing that as well, but i don't think it's the central goal. that's wrapped up in his riling up of his followers who are the ones who would commit violence against the judge any any of trump's supposed enemies.
"i think he's doing that as well, but i don't think it's the central goal."
Why not?
NYT Headline right now:
"Trump Rebukes Judge in Court; Judge Tells His Lawyers 'Control Your Client'
It is over-determined.
because i think his most important goal is winning the election so he can self-pardon and take revenge on his enemies as president.
Winning elections and losing court cases are intermingled, because losing court cases reduce his chances in the elections significantly.
Direct confrontation with the judge is not a better story than saying outraguous things, but it is a better way to make it clear to the judge and everybody else that it is personal against the judge. This is why it obviously intended mainly as a threat to the judge.
The things Trump says actually do matter legally. Punitive damages are in contemplation, which means criminal law-like considerations of remorse and the offender's understanding of his own wrong become relevant. In this case, Trump has demonstrated that he simply does not accept that he's done anything wrong and he has zero remorse. That would tend to call for punitive damages that are a substantial portion of his net worth to bring home to him in unmistakable terms that the court and society disapprove strongly of his behavior and want to discourage him from repeating it.
But, at the same time, Trump’s historically received an almost infinite amount of second chances and the benefit of the doubt. Yes, he could be wiped out by the NY civil suit but I’d be willing to bet real money that the penalty will be less than $100 million and the Trump Organization and its principals will be allowed to continue doing business in NY state.
Oh, I'll take that bet.
History says you will lose. In his entire life, Donald has never been held accountable for anything. People have always been either bullied into submission or they’ve chosen to “go high, when he goes low” or they’ve wanted to ingratiate themselves with a rich man. None of which bodes well for accountability now.
Oh FFS, he's not a god. He's just an odious jerk, and he absolutely _has_ been held accountable for things. His presidency was a failure, he lost reelection, and his businesses and personal brand have taken a hit in the form of the vast, vast animosity he's earned across this country and worldwide. He's deeply unpopular.
Now, he's not in jail (yet, and probably never will be), but I'm not sure what you expect--ex presidents and billionaires (or "billionaires" as is likely in Trump's case) have a huge amount of cushion protecting them. Nonetheless, he's a reviled public figure, and will be principly remembered in history for being the only president impeached twice and prosecuted criminally.
Stop contributing to the myth of Trump's invincibility. You are helping him and his supporters when you do.
None of the losses that you list are losses as far as Trump is concerned, except losing the elections in 2020.
Even this loss, considering how lousy he was as president, the fact that he got so close was quite an achievement.
The fact that people underestimate his skills is one of his main skills, and a large part in explaining how he got so far in destroying American values.
"None of the losses that you list are losses as far as Trump is concerned,"
I don't judge losses based on how the loser feels about them, or by the metrics the loser may apply after the fact. (Case in point: I do not credit Trump for anything for having "got so close" in 2020. The man lost.)
My main point is that Trump is neither invincible, inevitable, nor a force of nature. Moaning and wimpering about how nothing will ever touch (the indicted in four separate criminal cases) Trump is unhelpful and inaccurate.
Trump lost the 2020 election. The he lost 60 court cases trying to overturn the 2020 election. He lost the fight to keep Congress from getting his tax returns. He effectively lost the 2022 mid-terms although he will never admit it. He lost to jean Carroll. He lost to the State of New York, liability established, damages to be assessed shortly. Trump loses A LOT.
My point is partly that the reason why Trump’s never been held accountable for anything is because he acknowledges no social limits on himself and, as a sociopath, is free to conduct himself as such. Apart from losing the election, you can’t name any other event which has constituted anything remotely like accountability.
My reasoning for specifically saying that he’s mostly going to dodge a huge bullet in the NY civil case is mainly that (with the bomb threat against his home and family) I think it’s beginning to become inescapable that deservedly hammering Trump will mean spending the rest of his life looking over his shoulder and worrying about the safety of friends, family, and colleagues.
By the time pre-judgment interest and punitive damages are tacked on, I'm estimating about a half billion.
It is just an extension of his campaign. The press covers his statements and his attacks just as if he was out at a campaign stop. His response is fact free but it doesn't matter. Many of us could write these for him except we would probably use complete thoughts.
your conclusion demonstrates that you actually *do get it
"Even Trump isn't deluded enough to think that attacking the judge to his face will help his case."
It is a threat. He tells the judge "I take this personally. and will take revenge". That also sends a warning to other judges and juries and prosecutor teams about the violence that they should expect.
It will work on some of them.
I definitely agree with you. Coming on the heels of yesterday’s MAGA bomb threat against the judge’s home, I think Trump’s just making it clear to the judge and to future judges and jurors that it’s a really bad idea to cross Donald Trump. And I think you’re absolutely right that at least some of them will take Trump’s message to heart and acquit him or basically do whatever he wants.
And this speech could save Trump a lot of money, too. Again, attacking the judge right after the MAGA bomb threat is a signal to the judge that even though he made “mistakes” in his past rulings, he needs to submit to Trump for the sake of his family because now the judge knows that MAGA knows where they are and how to get to them. And Trump’s speech today is a signal to MAGA that he approves of the threat against the judge and his family.
If I were a witness against Trump I’d be scared. I would not want to be on a jury with Trump as a defendant. Trump is a mafia crime boss and he has millions of “family” members.
And it seems people don't get it. Even in this thread, Kevin himself and several posters seem to not realize that he is threatening.
But, interestingly, no mafioso has ever been as blatant in making threats nor as unrestrained in promising reprisals against law enforcement. I continue to believe that the only thing preventing a MAGA bloodbath is their of consequences such as were imposed on a handful of MAGA foot soldiers in the wake of the January 6th insurrection. But Trump’s pushing back against the forces of the law to free MAGA from its fears of consequences (and today’s supposedly forbidden rant and oblique threats against the judge and the attorney general are a big part of clearing the way for MAGA actions).
in happier news
An Ohio grand jury has declined to indict Brittany Watts, the 34-year-old woman charged with abusing a corpse after experiencing a miscarriage at home in a case that drew national attention to the ways women may be criminalized for their pregnancy outcomes in a post-Dobbs landscape.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/01/11/brittany-watts-grand-jury/
That is surprisingly good news.
I still don't quite understand why these arguments are happening, since I thought the facts of the case and trump's guilt were already decided by the judge and this proceeding is only to determine the damages.
No. The judge only declared Trump's guilt on part of the charges.
thanks
The reason to shut down the rants was that they will "inspire" his minions (not the happy yellow ones) to attack those involved in the case. And rants in the courthouse carry more weight than those on the street--better backdrop.
The judge ought to issue him a contempt of court and lock him up for the briefest of moments while his lawyers arrange to make bail.
And the judge would do that (and worse) for any other person behaving like that in court. But Trump threats work, at least to some extent, on this judge too.
i also think trump believes this judge is gonna screw him good and hard, but the case will ultimately be decided on appeal
so there's no downside to his ranting in this venue, only upside for his maga-pleasing performance
The threats are already present.
Yes but yesterday was a quantum leap in terms of seriousness since it was against the judge’s home (and therefore presumably against his family, too). When Trump continued to threaten the judge, I think he was signaling to his MAGA followers that he approved the threat against the judge’s family and would like to see it carried out if this judge doesn’t go easy on Trump. I think that was the point of today’s rant and I think the judge and Trump’s lawyers know it.
That’s a good point. Especially since the judge went out of his way to make the rules about what Trump should not say explicit and unmistakable. Anyone else but Trump would have been instantly behind bars and quite possibly his lawyers would be too. But neither Trump nor his lawyers suffered the slightest consequences. Which, I suspect, will further embolden them and also something else that breaks down the fear and hesitation that the January 6th prosecutions have engendered amongst the MAGA crowd. I believe that the thing that has prevented MAGA violence recently on Trump’s behalf is their sense of impunity being shattered by the imposition of consequences.
Remember when Kobe Bryant's lawyer repeatedly identified his accuser in the preliminary hearings, despite the judge ordering her not to, and not facing any consequences. This blatantly criminal behavior succeeded in its intent of forcing the accuser to drop the charges.
The legal system in this country is not really capable of imposing consequences on bad actors who are not poor and lacking the resources to either make life difficult for key actors in the system or to take reprisals against them.
I think bail would only be for criminal contempt and what you are discussing is civil contempt. Judge would have to issue reasonable terms such as Trump acknowledge and apologize for his behavior and promise not to do it again, and then he would be realized. Trump could be held for two years if he refused to apologize/ Which woul;d be ideal..
trump's whinging is the top story on fox news, so mission accomplished
The point is …..to play the victim…
Apparently trump doesn’t like his pu**y grabbed.
????????????????????????
The other day I alluded to Eugene V. Debs' defense at his sedition trial. Now we can set his oratory alongside Trump's for a perfect contrast.
Ah,might I suggest an alternative hypothesis? This was a desparate attempt on the part of Trump to get a rise out of the judge because a) it would immediately be made into prime time fodder for the networks, right wiring and otherwise, and b) something, anything so that Trump could declare a 'mistrial'. IOW, rant now, reap later.
"This case has no jury, so Trump's diatribe was heard only by the judge. So what's point?"
Well, we heard it. And so does Fox News and the rest of the right wing ecosystem. That's always the audience.
And the judge cuts him off? Oh man, even better for portraying him as the victim.
Yes, as stated here it's a clear threat towards the judge. Trump is also taking to new levels his declarations of, creating the sociocultural space for, his untouchable status, his demi-godhood, that he's the American Putin. Anyone else would be laughed out of the court and straight into contempt. As a thought experiment, imagine a country degraded to the point that Trump pulls a gun and shoots the judge, because in a way that's what he's doing here. Trump is all in at this point, and he's going to drag most of the American right with him. This rant could be more significant than it seems at first glance.
Trump probably rushed home after his statement to see the news reports in the right wing press. Feeding Donald's ego is the prime directive, nothing else is close.
There is some thought the judge knew Donald would do this but allowed him to speak anyway to preclude Trump appealing on grounds he wasn't allowed to speak. Better to hand him the rope and watch him hang himself.
"HE FIGHTS!" is one of the most common compliments his simpleton cultists pay to Trump. He doesn't take bullshit from Nancy Pelosi or Obama or RINOs or journalists or judges. He tells them to their faces what he thinks of them. This was just the latest little bit of image-burnishing.
There’s no federal statutory or constitutional issue in the case, so there is no basis for the U.S. Supreme Court to have jurisdiction on appeal. He just wanted to show his MAGA cult that he is a tough guy.
My thoughts too. State Supreme Court, but don't see the nation's Supreme Court getting involved unless there's a procedural/evidentiary issue, which I think is unlikely.
"Every bully I ever met can't shut his fuckin' mouth... except when he's afraid."
You have to keep ratcheting things up to keep the angry mob enraptured. The mob wants violence, the enablers want tax cuts...there will be violence and tax cuts.
I agree that Trump wants, even needs, violence but his troops are frozen because they mostly live very comfortable lives which they’re unwilling to have disrupted. The majority of them felt free to engage in various intimidation tactics because they historically enjoyed the feeling of impunity. But that sense of power and security was shattered by the DOJ’s prosecutions of many of the low level soldiers. Consequently, MAGA has largely stopped carrying out direct actions such as the armed occupation of the Michigan capital.
I think that if Trump can prompt a violent attack on a judge or prosecutor and the attacker is treated with kid gloves, that might embolden MAGA to actually attempt an action similar to January 6th if a suitable target presents itself.