I want to reiterate something: Donald Trump has been plotting his revenge against Volodymyr Zelensky ever since 2019, when Trump was impeached for trying to extort dirt on Joe Biden from Zelensky.
Trump is not especially pro-Putin on Ukraine and never has been. But he hates Zelensky, and he's happy to let Putin carve up Ukraine as a simple act of vengeance.
Zelensky's fate was settled five years ago. He just didn't know it. Trump must be chortling today over his Oval Office shouting match, designed for maximum humiliation of a guy he's been conniving against for a long time.
"Trump is not especially pro-Putin on Ukraine and never has been. "
Huh? Please don't repeat the Trump lies about how Trump's first term was "more pro-Ukraine than Obama" or whatever. During Trump's first term you basically had unanimous support in Congress for pro-Ukraine/anti-Russia policies (because Trump didn't have full control of the Republicans then). But he would still try to thwart Congress at every turn.
Agreed. He's pro-Putin just generally. I agree that there does seem to be animosity towards Zelenskyy, but there also seems to be a great deal of Putin influence on Trump's thinking -- he repeats a lot of Russia's dubious talking points. He also was pretty anti-Ukraine in his first term even before the impeachment, and only seemed to continue aid with pressure from Republicans in Congress and because of the Russia investigation.
If there's any real evidence of him being less than pro-Putin on any subject, I'd love to see it.
I'm having trouble following your logic. Kevin wrote that Trump is "not especially pro-Putin." Then you scold him for supposedly saying Trump was "pro-Ukraine."
These things are not the same.
The first quote is not Kevin specifically, but it's talking point you often hear from Republicans.
For the second, "pro-Ukraine/anti-Russia" is just another way of restating what Kevin was referencing.
Yes, Kevin is dead wrong when he says that "Trump is not especially pro-Putin". I see no evidence for that assertion and plenty to indicate otherwise. Kevin is right when he said that Trump wants to humiliate Zelensky.
It is not either-or. It is both-and.
And I think that Trump humiliated himself much more than he humiliated Zelensky. Maybe Carville is right that Republicans will self-destruct in a months time?
Maybe Carville is right that Republicans will self-destruct in a months time?
How could Carville be right? We're likely to hear mostly crickets out of GOP officials (or, else fulsome praise for the Dear Leader for "standing up for America"). Very few swing voters prioritize foreign policy, and the vast bulk of Trump's base are as pro-Putin as Trump is.
Democrats will condemn Trump, of course. Already are. But to what end?
It's going to take something much more politically potent than "joining the Axis of Evil" to bring this regime to heal. As in, a financial meltdown caused by a debt default (something of that nature).
There’s one brewing, trying to time it may be foolish. That’s why the subterfuge around the FDIC no longer showing the total assets of the Problem Bank List so people don’t freak out when big players hit it.
The stock market has built up a major AI bubble and there’s a housing bubble as well. Confidence is dropping everywhere and wallets are closing up. Add major job losses and you have a toxic stew that just needs a little push.
I am not convinced that Trump isn’t a Putin sycophant, but other than that, I think this analysis is spot on. There’s one thing we do no for sure about Trump is that revenge fuels him more than anything g else.
It's missing some stuff, though, too. Recall that Trump's phone call to Zelinsky was peppered with demands about Clinton's email server. Trump dimly believes all sorts of inane nonsense, and that is *also* what drives his hatred/revenge impulse against Ukraine.
Kevin, you have it 100% wrong. The one who was humiliated is Trump. He wanted to show off with the "Agreement" and he was left empty-handed. That is why he lost it. He offered the Ukraine something that offered them nothing, and Zelenskiy worked out he had nothing to lose.
" . . . designed for maximum humiliation . . . "
Outside of MAGA world, wholly self-inflicted.
True, but what does Zelensky do from here? I don't envy him having to go into that room and eat shit from those two morons in order to help his country.
The US can no longer be relied on as a strategic partner for anyone in the world. Europe needs to step up because the US is a lost cause.
Yup, we just took ourselves out of the mix. Europe will stand behind Ukraine, who will join NATO.
Except that admission to NATO must be unanimously voted, and the US and Hungary will veto. I expect the Europeans will coöperate closely in support of Ukraine, and that this will evolve over time into an alternate treaty organization. There is a good deal of hand-wringing over the supposed weakness of European militaries, but I think this is as overly pessimistic as was the overestimation of Russia's strength in February 2022.
The US will leave NATO, they just need to work on Hungary. Nothing a little regime change can’t fix.
This is a clarifying development for Ukraine and Europe, after Macron and Starmer tried to nudge Trump toward more solidarity with Europe, TFM made his pro-Russia position quite clear. It's more impetus for European unity.
The one who was humiliated is Trump.
I doubt it. Humiliation implies the person in question actually feels humiliated, right? Trump probably thinks berating the heroic leader of that beleaguered democracy constitutes a massive win for himself, and for America.
He's a sick, warped lunatic.
I suspect he tried to dry-gulch Zelenskyy behind closed doors.
Concur this likely is part of it, and part of his general attitude that Zelenskyy OWES him, but I think it's only part. There's also his natural instinct to bully someone in a weaker position in order to appear dominant -- that's really the only kind of "negotiation" he can do, as his business career shows clearly -- and there's his affinity for, and consequent subservience to, Putin, as indicated by his remark about what he AND PUTIN "went through" during his first impeachment.
Whatever his motivations though, this episode -- this wretched, humiliating (for us) AMBUSH -- has made one thing CRYSTAL clear to the world (on live TV!). Trump, and by extension the United States (for now), simply cannot be trusted.
He likely doesn't understand this, and might not care if he did, but omg, what a disaster for the country. Alliances? Agreements? Not any more...
Trump does not respect "the little guy", probably never has.
If Zelenskyy wanted to gain more assistance from Europe, today was definitely the way to do it. Show that the US is an unreliable ally on live TV.
Also wtf is this supposed to mean: "Zelensky's fate was settled five years ago." Kevin: what exactly was Zelenskyy supposed to do differently back in 2019 or in the intervening years? Pre-emptively give in to Russia? Assist Trump in framing Biden? What? This course of events may have been inevitable... as all courses of events appear in hindsight... but it appears Zelenskyy has made the best of a bad hand now for 6 straight years... not bad for a true patriot of his country.
I don't think you should take "his fate was sealed" as any kind of admonishment. I think it is correct that on that day Zelensky's place in Trump's addled brain was set in stone.
The only question now is whether or not Zelensky resigning could improve Ukraine's chances of renewed support.
Definitely no time to be doing that in the middle of an active invasion/war, especially when dealing with someone as feckless as Trump, and considering this would be a huge win for Putin.
A few days ago, President of the European Commission von der Leyen a number of European leaders and PM Trudeau were in Kyiv to announce new aid packages. They are clearly with Zelenskyy and that means more now than some chance that the Dotard would turn around. And even if he did, nothing would be more characteristic than for him to renege on any promise of support.
I think that if this had happened two years ago, it would have been the end for Ukraine. But I think that Europe is now in a position to step up and replace the US as Ukraine's primary benefactor. The result may well end up being a more united and cohesive Europe. Which would likely be a good thing overall.
+1
Trump is not especially pro-Putin
This is simply wrong. A lot of people have been suckered by this; you read widely enough that you should not be.
Agreed. Trump passionately admires Putin, because Putin is living exactly the kind of life Trump wants.
Poison tea, 10th story windows, planes crashing, 700,000 troops dead or wounded, and no consequences ... yep, the life of Riley.
+1
So now for the big question: will it change the mind of any American voter?
Some, I think, though not as many as we might logically expect.
Many Trump critics keep waiting for the catastrophic collapse in support for Trump. I don't think that's going to happen. Instead, we're going to see his support erode a little at a time. The right-wing messaging infrastructure is going to prop him up for a long while.
I don't think today's debacle won him any new support.
We only need a little bit of erosion. His margin was very small.
He's not running for reelection, so the erosion has to be enough to turf out Republican reps and senators.
The majority of voters, especially casual Trump supporters, don't pay much mind to politics. Voters will only abandon Trump when job losses and inflation are rampant. Will it be in time to right the ship, so to speak? I don't expect so.
I think it will hit before the mid-terms.
Which might be too late. I don't think any of the institutions can save this situation.
All of the fascist party members of Congress are falling all over themselves to say how great Trump and Vance are and how Zelensky needs to resign. This will probably influence a lot of the rank and file of the fascist party.
The only people humiliated in that meeting were Trump and Vance.
Oh, don't sell it short! I'm sure hundreds of thousands of Americans watched that exchange with humiliation.
I know I sure did.
Lol yeah me three. I thought Zelenskyy handled himself remarkably well, especially (1) for being attacked first, (2) for being tag-teamed, and (3) speaking in English.
I'm keep shaking my head in disbelief by the actions of our current president and vice president. Not only is it embarrassing, its harmful to our reputation with our allies. It's a fucking joke. Those two clowns in the oval office are sad pathetic asshats.
When I heard Zelensky was coming, I kept thinking, "It's a trap!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA
Turns out... it was.
They're trying to move the polls, a Rufo special, this was disastrous tho in that respect, but otherwise easily forgiven and forgotten, if Trump can be guided by other Republicans to put personal and petty grievances aside.
"Trump can be guided by other Republicans to put personal and petty grievances aside."
I don't believe this for a second. Grievances are all he has. He doesn't even understand the world beyond them.
The deal that was described was such a vague nothingburger that it makes sense only as bait to lure Zelenskyy to DC so they could rip into him.
Yeah, I think this was a set up. Maybe it was Plan B, where Plan A was Zelensky getting on his knees.
A dictatorship yet?
Ukraine's fate to be used as a patsy then betrayed by the US was settled in February 2014.
I don't agree with Kevin's point here (he's right revenge is part of it, he's wrong Trump's not especially pro-Putin on Ukraine, it's too early to say who's fate was sealed years ago, and to most reasonable observers Trump was the one humiliated).
But having seen the video now, I think it's noteworthy what set off Trump. Vance and Zelensky have an exchange. Trump sits silently. When he interrupts, it's when Zelensky says this:
"Everybody has problems. Even you, but you have a nice ocean and don't feel it now, but you will feel it in the future."
Of course, that's the truth. It's one of history's more important lessons. But Trump takes it as a threat and shuts him down. It's his lizard brain instinct. But it's also dangerous information that Trump doesn't want Americans to hear. He can't abide Americans knowing that fucking Ukraine here will be fucking the US in the long run.
Trump is an ignorant and small man and we'll be lucky to make it out alive.
Zelensky, regardless of what happens, will be a hero for the ages.
+1
++
Well, so now I'll have to sit through the whole damn scene, thanks a lot!
And that's because trump himself has talked about how the ocean makes Europe somebody else's problem. In the Feb 19 tweet-- the one where he called Zelensky a dictator who only knows how to scam everybody and said pretty much what he said yesterday about how Ukrainians have to stop everything now or they won't have a country-- he mentioned the "big beautiful ocean" that makes Europe irrelevant to the US and complained about how the US is getting nothing from helping Ukraine.
Until now, I've been almost 100% convinced the whole thing was an ambush. This is making me wonder about that, about whether that image is so fixed with trump that he just completely blows up if anyone questions it. It doesn't change the big picture; clearly trump is nuts. The question is just how completely and in what forms.
The "evidence" that Zelensky could manufacture dirt on Biden was manufactured by Putin.
America has just lost all our allies (except maybe Israel). They're all wondering how Americans could have elected such a selfish, self-centered idiot, and just assume that America has completely lost all moral ground, ceding the label of leader of the free world.
He can't walk back what just happened. No one trusts him. No one trusts the US.
I'm increasing the odds of Trump being removed from office before the end of the year to 75%.
Israel has never actually been an ally. I realize it's illegal for me to type that.
/s AIPAC knows who you are, NOW! The IRS and FBI will be looking into it.
That is an anti-Semitic trope!!!
The US has definitely been Israel's ally and supporter. I'm not aware of any noticeable reciprocity.
"I'm increasing the odds of Trump being removed from office before the end of the year to 75%."
I wish I could believe that, but who's going to do it? The gop is paralyzed with fear and will bow down to him til the end of his term. The only hope I see is If the Democrats can manage to take both houses of Congress in 26. Even then the chances of their getting enough votes to impeach him is slim.
It is more likely they will name a state after him.
Who said impeachment was the only way?
There will be more of these public blowups and more opportunities for them to earn more enmity from across all parts of the political aisle. This is nothing like his first term; this is imploding quickly.
I'm increasing the odds of Trump being removed from office before the end of the year to 75%.
Based on what?
The 25th amendment? His cabinet is comprised on human rubber stamps, carefully chosen for their inability to express independent thought or initiative.
Impeachment? Don't make me laugh. Zero chance Speaker Johnson allows articles of impeachment to to the floor of the House, and zero chance there are there 20 Republicans in the Senate willing to convict.
What am I missing? (serious question: I'd love to think there's a ray of hope I'm overlooking).
I think you're not fully seeing the totality of what's happened and what's going to happen. First, we need to acknowledge that the convicted felon Trump has completely lost control of his emotions and these outbursts are getting worse. Eventually, he will issue direct threats/orders. The subtlety of "stand back and stand by" will soon be gone.
If Trump's suffering from Alzheimer/Dementia, these wild and more frequent outbursts signal the end is approaching. Beyond that, there's the Surgeon General "committing him" involuntarily, assassination, various types of coups, other types of sickness (Syphilis?) that leads to death or impairment, being 25th'd, accidents, etc.
This chaos does not continue at this pace without consequences, and those consequences are increasingly pointing to his removal. IDK the "how", but the moral of the story of Thanos is that the person who brings the chaos is also subject to the consequences of it.
Beyond that, there's the Surgeon General "committing him" involuntarily.
That's not a thing!
Sure, his health could collapse, and I do agree the signs of significant cognitive decline are there. So, know hope. Or, yes, he could die. I'd imagine he has the best healthcare available on planet earth, so, hoping his doctors have missed something really major (like, a nearly blocked coronary artery?) seems a very thin reed of hope. But even Bethesda's doctors aren't superhuman.
I suspect his health issues will continue apace, but the decline will be sufficiently gradual (and GOP pusillanimity strong enough) so that he'll able to serve out his term. At least that's my fear. (It feels like the country is being made to serve a four year prison sentence).
But sure, nobody knows what the future brings, and one cannot give up hope.
It's not a thing?
I thought conservatives were all trying to get around ACLU's win in 1975's O'Connor v. Donaldson. In this case, the man has the nuclear codes, so he does present a danger. If not the Surgeon General, then the staff at Walter Reed?
The man is losing it.🤪 He needs to be committed.
I'd guess Trump is very pro-Putin. Trump is a supplicant to Putin--all to build a big beautiful Trump Tower Moscow. Putin doesn't say no, just keeps making excuses why it can't be done--nothing Trump did of course, just bad behavior by the US tying his hands because he'd love to help Trump.
Of course Trump should have gotten an Nobel Peace Prize, he's so much more deserving than he who shall not be named.
Of course the deep state is out to get you and you should destroy America's institutions.
etc.....
Putin just has to appeal to Trump's worst instincts, and Putin wins! Everyone else has to appeal to Trump's better nature--guaranteed to fail.
That misses the main points.
1) Trump admires dictators in general.
2) Putin is one of the most standing out living dictators, and the only one of the "right race".
3) Putin didn't inherit a dictatorship, he subjugated a (young and weak) democracy, which is what Trump wants to do.
4) Putin was very helpful to Trump in the past, gave trump useful advice about how to proceed in subjugating the US, and Trump may be expecting more advice.
He probably will be happy to build an hotel in Moscow, but that is very minor issue.
Very true. And Putin has been working Trump for a very long time.
I think Putin helped Trump win in 2016 and I believe Trump thinks so too.
Plus trump wants to build hotels in russia.
What did Don Jr. say "We can get all the money we want from Russia"?
Do it now, people. This administration is selling out America and the founding principle of freedom. Impeach him now. Arrest him for Treason now. Whatever you're going to do, do it now.
Treason is part of his official duties.
"Arrest him for Treason now."
I guess you missed it, but SCOTUS has ruled that nothing Trump does as president can be a crime.
"Impeach him now."
He's been impeached twice already. Impeachment is just an indictment. To remove him from office requires a 2/3 vote in the Senate, which will happen co-terminus with the first verified report of porcine aviation.
What's obvious is that Trump is Putin's bitch, and Zelenskyy just proved it beyond doubt for all the world to see.
Slava Ukraini!
Heroiam slava!
And… here comes the recession.
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/02/28/the-first-quarter-is-on-track-for-negative-gdp-growth-atlanta-fed-indicator-says-.html
Trump is as pro-Putin as an American can be. He uses Putin's talking points and so far has given Putin every item he wants in a peace deal. The only question left is to what extent Putin will be able to weaken Ukraine in the final Trump-Putin deal. Trump has already given Putin 1-4 below, so now it comes down to how much he gives in to Putin for #5.
1. Keeps the lands his military has captured
2. Ukraine does not join NATO
3. Sanctions on Russia lifted
4. No US peacekeeping forces in Ukraine
5. No NATO-country peacekeeping forces in Ukraine. So, either no peacekeepers, or very ineffective ones. And place restrictions on the size of Ukraine’s military.
"Trump is not especially pro-Putin "
oh FFS
+1
I think revenge was visible in the video, but it seems to me it came up as the talk progressed (or regressed). Zelenskiy apparently came with the intent to sign an agreement, but it was a dud one. I read it and though it's pretty vague it seems clear the deal was for the US to control to a large extent who would rebuild Ukraine, using 50% of all new mineral resources. I can guess why Trump wanted it: to funnel the contracts to cronies or companies that paid him. In any case Zelenskiy wanted security guarantees and Trump wouldn't give them. Z at that point realized Trump was in full extortion mode: gun to the head, hand over your riches, zilch in exchange. But it was that way re Gaza, Canada, Panama and Greenland too.
It'll be all right, maybe, because countries aren't cowed by Trump's highway-robber with offers they can't refuse posture. Macron and others were immediately on the phone with Z. And Russia is much less strong than it pretends to be. But Lord knows which part of the world will be the next to face an extortion attempt with the US military and government reduced to playing the role of mafia hitmen.
Taiwan was paying attention. For sure
+1
China has already made overtures.
And Intel is delaying the construction of it's new FAB in Ohio.
Zelenskiy apparently came with the intent to sign an agreement, but it was a dud one.
Are you saying the Trump people changed what had been agreed on? That makes a certain amount of sense. Because I've been wondering why a smart politician like Zelensky didn't just meekly let them bloviate, get his signatures, and get the hell out of DC, agreement in hand.
The relationship between Ukraine and the US is very asymmetric: Ukraine/Zelensky need US support MUCH more than the US needs anything from Zelensky.
No matter how boorish Trump and Vance acted, this meeting blow is way more significant for Zelensky and Ukraine.
This is completely wrong. The US very much needs Ukraine to prevent Russian expansion in Europe, whether Trump and the other fascists believe it. The Ukrainians are bleeding and dying for all of us. It is ENORMOUSLY in our strategic interest to bottle Putin up and wreck his territorial ambitions.
Consider the source
Please don't feed the troll.
This is all true as far as it goes, but it does not take into account geopolitical ramifications. The US was never in this for the sake of Ukraine alone, it was for the sake of maintaining Russian containment.
IOW, this was never a charity case.
Never, in my whole life, have I seen or heard anything so disgusting. The convicted felon is a given but the insanity of Vance piling on was over the top or below the bottom. They have sunk the US to the bottom of the pile.
I have never been so embarrassed being a citizen of the US as I am today. We are a fucking laughing stock in the world, who voted in a Russian asset as President. We witnessed not simply revenge on Zelensky who didn't do his bidding in 2019, but Trump doing his duty as Putin's "fluffer".
Reagan, Ike, Nixon, George H, and Goldwater must be turning in their graves
My knee-jerk reaction was to object to you including Nixon in that list, but on second thought I'm OK with it. Nixon was crooked as a dead snake, and totally capable of screwing a weaker country to get something he wanted, but he would never have done so in a manner as embarrassing to the US as what Trump just did. For all his grievous faults, Nixon had a core of statesmanship about him that would have kept him well above today's sh*tshow.
also noted:
trump bars the AP from the press pool but rolls out the red carpet for TASS
no comment from lindsey graham
Graham went full Trump defense. He is “proud” of Trump and Vance and thinks there will have to be a change in leadership in Ukraine. Then he pardoned himself and went to John McCain’s grave to take a dump.
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth last week ordered U.S. Cyber Command to stand down from all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions, according to three people familiar with the matter.
Hegseth gave the instruction to Cyber Command chief Gen. Timothy Haugh, who then informed the organization's outgoing director of operations, Marine Corps Maj. Gen. Ryan Heritage, of the new guidance, according to these people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the matter’s sensitivity.
https://therecord.media/hegseth-orders-cyber-command-stand-down-russia-planning
Today's dysfunction more a teapot than tempest in my view, with some of that seemingly a set up by Trump and Vance (specifically the segment when JD interceded and following), the Trump policy on Russia and Ukraine, and his framing and siding with Putin, is what people should be concerned about, not their weak (and unsuccessful) effort to move attitudes and polling today.
Painting Putin as another victim of the witch hunt is pretty much a new and epic low, even for Trump, and I'm guessing not in the plan going in.
Also the "aligning" with Putin was very non-Churchillian (in fact, just about everything Trump is saying about Russia-Ukraine is diametrically in opposition to Churchill, and instead Chamberlain-esque).
And if you don't learn from history...well, that's on you, and us, but Trump is wrong to say Ukraine has no cards without us, Europe has actually backed them more than us (and spent more), hopefully we continue to help lead that coalition and our real and natural allies, and the people of Ukraine who are defending their homes and freedom against aggression.
I imagine Zelenskyy had to go through the motions or be accused of refusing to negotiate, but he must have already known what any rational observer knew: America is siding with Russia against Ukraine. In addition to the report cited by lower-case above, there was also this:
and we have four years of this shit thanks to the keen political insights of america's swing voters
That's really the depressing part. We'll get some relief, maybe (if we still have a country left) after the midterms: it seem overwhelmingly likely Democrats will take back the House. But they won't take back the Senate, I'm pretty sure, so relief on that front will be scant.
If really feels as though the country has been taken hostage, and there's no prospect of the arrival of the police for another 46 months.
If he isn't pro-Putin, then there must be somewhere -- anywhere -- where Trump has said or done anything critical of Putin or Russia. I have yet to see a single instance of even the mildest criticism.