You can't expect people to get excited about modest improvements, even if they are improvements. One can accept the very real constraints of our political system — even, perhaps, understand them — while also wondering why it is the apparent outer limit of what Biden wants.
I don't get this. Biden took office and immediately passed a gigantic $1.9 trillion spending bill that included a historic increase to the Child Tax Credit. He tried to pass a multi-trillion dollar BBB package that was probably the most ambitious social spending proposal since the New Deal. It failed only because Congress couldn't come together—and eventually because of Joe Manchin. Biden withdrew completely from Afghanistan despite strong pressure to leave troops there. He ordered a huge student loan relief, which failed only because the Supreme Court killed it. He has been absolutely steadfast in his support of Ukraine and Israel—for better or worse. He has appointed 165 judges, 90% of whom are not white males.
Whatever else you can say about Biden, he's shown that his outer limits are pretty far out there. He hasn't succeeded at everything, but he's pushed the envelope pretty hard.
UPDATE: Just to clarify, my beef isn't with the notion that most people don't know what Biden has done. Of course not. It's specifically with the claim that Biden hasn't even tried to do anything big.
"Non-white males" would mean they're mostly men of color. I don't think that's what you meant.
For want of a hyphen, a meaning was lost.
CTC means nothing to the childless or the people who didn’t qualify (which included a lot of regular job parents that happened to live in high income & high expense metro areas). And it expired, so it means nothing to anyone going forward either. (It’s unclear if you were a parent getting the CTC how you’ll ever get it back again, no matter how you vote.)
Nobody except military families benefitted from pulling out of Afghanistan. It’s not like we were being specifically taxed for it and the tax went away. Nor is it like all the money we were spending over there is being pumped into any new or existing program or project here. As far as anyone who cares to do the research can tell, the federal govt provides no more and no less service than it did in 2001 before we invaded.
Same with aid to Israel or Ukraine, and same with appointing judges. Nobody directly benefits from any of that and nobody directly pays a tax specifically for it, so it’s background noise for the family too busy to pay attention to politics.
And it’s hard to get people excited about a program you wanted to pass built was shut down before it could launch, ie student loan relief. It’s also why nobody cared about Obamacare for its first 4 years or so, until the subsidized plans actually became available.
Don’t get me wrong: all this stuff is big to me, a political junkie. But it’s not to regular folk for the reasons stated above. Nobody’s life is noticeably any different today than it was in 2021, except the threat from Covid is diminished and women lost the right to their own body.
(That last part has lots of low info voters actually blaming Biden. After all it happened on his watch. Ugh.)
If a voter is blaming Biden for what the Trump Supreme Court did they are so low information they simply don't matter in any election. Moreover, ALL the evidence so far is that oeverturning Roe will help Biden and the Democrats quite a lot. Methinks you're trying a little too hard to find the cloud in the silver lining.
I think what many people are holding against Biden is the passive way in which he accepted an outrageous political decision from the court. Being screwed over didn’t seem to budge his stance on court reform or expansion in the least. Which, aside from discouraging his supporters, makes future such losses much more likely from the Republicans on this court.
But it did budge his stance.
Insofar as I'm aware, Joe Biden remains inalterably opposed to expanding the Supreme Court, which is the only way that the Republican majority can realistically be dislodged in the foreseeable future. And he doesn't seem to be all that interested in reforming the court system, either.
The Republican majority can be eliminated immediately after their decision in Trump’s favor regarding presidential immunity 😉
If it goes that way, nothing to stop Biden arresting and detaining the Republican Justices.
...As far as you know is doing heavy lifting.
they are so low information they simply don't matter in any election.
I'm not sure why you think low information voters "don't matter in any election." Unfortunately they matter a great deal. Indeed it is they who largely decide our elections.
Not to put too fine a point on it but I not say all low information voters, I said those who are SO low that they blame Biden for overturning Roe. Many of those folks are not giong to vote at all and the ones that do are already so far down the Trump rabbit hole that they don't matter. There are lots of low information voters who we can and should worry about, but not this subset.
>trying a little too hard to find the cloud in the silver lining.
That's the Liberal Way: The Religion of Doom.
Just read this thread of comments. SAD
"Nobody except military families benefitted from pulling out of Afghanistan."
I am afraid this is almost Trumpian. American soldiers have died there and were wounded there year after year and for no discernible purpose. I can't believe somebody would be so callous to say in essence "I didn't die there what do I care".
Whether voters can feel it personally or not the war in Ukraine is a HUGE deal. And I suspect if we’d still been stuck in Afghanistan we’d have been less willing to go to bat for Ukraine.
I know we’re both probably in the minority, as are all the other Drum readers, but I think it’s very important for leaders to get the big, invisible things right.
But yes, most Americans don’t think that way. I remember a bit from Bill Clinton's autobiography years ago. He talked about losing his reelection race for governor and talking to a guy who had been a good friend and very strong supporter for years who had voted against him after having supporting him the first time. He said “what happened, I thought we were so solid?” The voter said, “Yeah, but you raised my gas tax.” That summed up the American voter in a nutshell. The world could be burning, injustice everywhere, and no one has health insurance, but nothing was more important than a five cent hike in gas prices.
This is everything. Jambo summed up everything important about the United States in one paragraph. EOM.
Remember, EVERYone -- except African-American slaves dragged here in chains -- came here because they were dissatisfied with their lives in "wherever they came from". This includes Indigenous Americans who walked and/or paddled here.
We are a genetically selected super-stock of Damnable Complainers and it will never change. As a group we're far more likely to cut off our noses to spite our faces than to find a common ground with someone else. It has produced national psychosis regularly throughout our history.
Truly, the only thing that can produce something that looks like "solidarity" is if we get attacked by some other country or people. Then and only then do we "ally", and it's only temporary.
Uhh, the vast majority of parents qualified.
That people, like Atrios, think they have to "get excited" about politicians is one of the many bad features of our current age. I don't remember an excitement requirement when we choosing between, say, Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. For god's sake, if you're looking for entertainment fire up Netflix or light up a joint or something. That's not what politics is for.
Agreed. Kevin doesn't "get this"? Has he been paying attention to how our media operates in the last couple of decades? Nothing that Biden - or any other president - actually DOES is of interest to those legendary "hard-working families who are busy just raising their kids." Too busy, you know, to pay attention to the things that profoundly affect their ability to be hard-working and raise their kids.
Funny, I worked hard and raised kids, but for the last 30+ years, I paid close attention to what our leaders were doing, for good or ill. I thought it was my duty as a citizen, despite the fact that the media wanted me to pay attention only to the commercials.
This. The idea that presidential candidates need to "excite" voters is one of the curses of American politics. In similar vein, some pundit at (I think) the NYT was recently bemoaning Biden's failure to inspire voters with a "vision of America's future" (which would presumably be a lot different to today's America), even while admitting presidents had little power to change anything significant in such a polarised society.
This is what happens when marketing consultants become involved in politics. "Messaging" is everything; substance becomes irrelevant. Lost in an artificial world of polls and focus groups, they never notice what is happening outside it.
I think Biden should campaign ON being boring. “My fellow Americans, the drama of the daily Trump presidency? Good Lord, who wants to live through that again? Let’s just all resolve to calm down and get back to our boring but important work that we all have to do every day. Presidents included.”
I agree, this is just wishcasting by those who want to continually move the goalposts because they can never be satisfied. One can't be motivated about stopping Trump or keeping at least one House of Congress, then I don't what can motivate, outside of free shots of rum everyday.
This comes across as akin to "Bernie cannot fail, only be failed."
How so?
Atrios does seem to have gone a little Green Lantern recently. Might just be the weather.
Over the years, he's been one to criticize others for doing the same thing.
He's become obsessed with the notion that Joe Biden has a switch in his desk that he can flip and end the violence in Gaza. It's all on Biden. Netanyahu, the IDF, and Hamas are just puppets on his strings.
The truth is that there aren't many Americans who give a shit about Palestinians. It's not good, it's not fair, but it's also tough shit.
Well, he represents those "Americans who [don't] give a shit about Palestinians". Good reason alone to flush him down the toilet.
Given a choice between a second Biden presidency, and flushing Biden down the toilet, I'll take the second Biden presidency. Perhaps it is too "realpolitik" for your taste, but I certainly do not wish to see Donald Trump in the White House again.
Sure, and help elect the guy who doesn’t give a shit about anybdy but himself.
150,000 people die every day all over the world and most of them aren't assholes like the palestinians and jews in israel.
Seriously, a pox on both their houses.
Also on Purity Police very lefties who say they won't vote for Biden because of his stance on what is going on there: Biden's view might be a little outdated, but within the context of a done deal (the Hamas attack/Israel response) I'm sure the actual diplomats now in charge at State are doing what they can.
It's also not how our system works. Not voting or throwing it away on a good person (Nader) or a really bad one (Jill Stein) and you get some really terrible President. It's a secret ballot, not your public identity.
Personally I don't get why we send billions a year and now even more to a country with a per capita income higher than many European countries. This doesn't mean I don't participate or throw away my vote.
He doesn't care? Because that's not what he's done.
Why would you say that, Elwailly? Do not the Palestinians and Israelis deserve the right of self determination?
If you blame Biden, you are being deliberately obtuse.
it isn't Biden who screamed about Muslims, resulting in actual murderous attacks on people - including Hindus (any brown completion makes a good target), while deliberately betraying the Afghan government by making a "deal" with the Taliban, then ignoring his own deadline, leaving the disastrous consequences to Biden.
And it is unfortunate that so many thought that Zelenskyy would attack Ruif given adequate weapons, while it us the Netanyahu coalition that has used our support for overkill - not, I know, with Biden's approval.
And it was trump's encouragement of hatred of Muslims that is responsible for the fact that some - including those I know - to flee the US to their native vointry,where they face another kind of repression.
I skim read Atrios, but only because it doesn't take long. He's gone the same way as Daniel Larison in his final years at American Conservative, triggering reactions of "not this again" with posts that are endless variations on a handful of themes.
I disagree. I think Atrios is really complaining about Biden’s passively accepting the losses rather than trying again to pass something or even trying to make Republicans or Joe Manchin pay a political price for blocking his popular political initiatives.
For example, Kevin is very politically aware and remembers stuff but most people don’t. They don’t remember that Joe Manchin blocked this or the Republicans on the Supreme Court blocked that. And Biden doesn’t remind people of what they’ve lost or could have had. That means there’s no political price to be paid for obstructing Biden and that makes everyone eager to do it.
On student debt, Biden DID try again via executive action and his program is pretty good--income-based loan repayment, with forgiveness of principal after 10 years if not fully paid off.
And when was the last time that Biden reminded us of that fact? I’d completely forgotten about that and had to do a quick google search to confirm that you’re right.
Uhh, Tuesday?
I think Atrios is really complaining about Biden’s passively accepting the losses rather than trying again to pass something . . .
He did try to pass things again. Then Democrats lost control of the House.
. . . or even trying to make Republicans or Joe Manchin pay a political price for blocking his popular political initiatives.
Please explain exactly how you think he should have punished them.
He should have made them take hard votes on these things and regularly campaigned in the districts of GOP house members who voted against him. As for Manchin, he’s all about money. His own and his big contributors—there’s lot of way to hit Manchin and his pals in the pocketbook but neither Biden nor Obama nor Schumer have any appetite for doing hardball.
He should have made them take hard votes on these things and regularly campaigned in the districts of GOP house members who voted against him.
In other words, after saying that he should have punished Joe Manchin, you advocate actions that would have helped Manchin. Ditto the Republican House members.
His own and his big contributors—there’s lot of way to hit Manchin and his pals in the pocketbook
Name one. I strongly suspect that you won't do any better than you already have. Which of Joe Manchin's big contributors do you think would turn on him because of Biden. Names, please.
You always have a clueless take on American politics. You think that what is obvious to you must be obvious to everyone. You think that opposition to the things that you approve of is so shallow that, if only a Democrat would just talk about it, heads would spin and minds would be changed. That none of this is true doesn't phase you in the slightest.
Here's one small example. Manchin's personal business interests are essential protected by and bound up with his political activities. That makes him vulnerable and, I believe, ultimately it also makes him tractable.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/08/manchin-family-coal-company-00003218
Vulnerable to what, exactly?
"Passively" is doing a lot of lifting there. Biden certainly is not putting VISIBLE effort into fighting some issues / people. And I agree that he's not in ANY apparent way, eg, going after Joe Manchin publicly, and Manchin is a terrible pain in the ass (not to mention one of my Senators).
But I still think there's a lot of Green Lantern at work. To take a trivial example, what good would it do to come down hard on Manchin? He's not running for re-election (because he couldn't win if he did), but he's still a vote in a closely divided Senate. Why on Earth would Biden make him a public enemy? Does anyone actually think that publicly criticizing Joe Manchin will somehow make him toe the line more closely?
Or a more serious problem: Bibi Netanyahu. The guy has demonstrated both his intentions and his bad faith repeatedly. But he's still the head of government of Israel. And the attacks by Hamas and the response by the IDF have become thoroughly politicized in the US, and both Jews and Muslims are important Democratic constituencies (in contrast to Republicans, who couldn't care less about either). Ain't no easy answer, and for sure none that involves shouting from the White House.
Honestly, I'm getting a little tired of "why hasn't Joe yelled a lot about X?" Because (1) the world is a complex place, and that includes the US government in which both Republicans AND Democrats like Manchin unfortunately still play a significant part, and (2) fine, if it ain't good enough, vote for the Orange Guy.
I wasn't suggesting that Biden make an enemy out of Manchin but rather that he apply pressure to the financial interests of Manchin and his backers which I don't think would be hard to do. In the long run, there's no long run for Manchin and in the short run I think Biden could probably muzzle him.
As for Bibi, yes, he's the head of the Israeli government but that's a government which is extremely dependent on US support for its survival. And Bibi's made it clear that he places his own political survival ahead of even his country's survival. It's completely insane for Biden to be so totally invested in keeping Bibi in power. It's cost him politically with young voters, Jewish non-billionaires, and muslims.
My guess is that if Biden said no more aid until the bombing in Gaza stops and Bibi resigns, the bombing would stop and Bibi would go out of office and probably into prison where he belongs.
I wasn't suggesting that Biden make an enemy out of Manchin but rather that he apply pressure to the financial interests of Manchin and his backers which I don't think would be hard to do.
Translation: "I wasn't suggesting that Biden make an enemy out of Manchin, but I really think he should make an enemy out of Manchin, and it wouldn't be hard to do despite a total lack of specifics on my part."
I don't want Biden to make an enemy out of a normally "reliable" Democratic vote in the Senate. I just want him to take steps to make Manchin more tractable. Which I think Biden could very easily do.
What steps, tho?
Do you... read the White House press releases? Follow his speaches? Read his twitter?
I feel like I'm back in the Obama administration when people would make impassioned please for him to do something he'd done the week or month before.
But none of these awesome ideas or accomplishments mattered in my life or yours. So really… status quo. Which is fine. But don’t try to argue it’s anything else, because it’s not.
Waaaaaaahhhhhhhh! I'm only interested in the things that directly benefitted me!
I didn't expect anything interesting from Biden and the democrats. The status quo is fine, as I wrote, and I am fully in support of that. Lots of people - like you perhaps - seem to want extra credit for doing things that no one cares about. I'd like to see some folks who had their student loan debt reduced say "Thank you Joe!" but we all know they probably won't even vote for him.
Biden is a perfectly average president and much better than trump who should be in prison. If Trump ends up there, then I'll be cheering. Anyway - I'll vote for democrats as always so they don't need to impress me.
If he’s perfectly average, then we have had literally nothing but well below average presidencies for my entire life. Reagan was inaugurated when I was one year old and Biden shits on every prez since then from great heights. And I’m not even a fan of the man personally.
Uhh, what? How?
Did you want to go back to an administration that was actively interfering with state efforts against a pandemic?
Atrios aside, because he has his own very set patterns, this thread so much puts me in mind of Obama's first debate with Romney. That was the one where he'd obviously not prepared, was preoccupied and slow, and it provoked a whole lot of gloom and doom. He'd been busy governating, which is a whole lot different than campaigning, and needed to shift. Caveats: no president or politician governs without campaigning in mind; Obama was a master campaigner both with people who were going to vote for him anyway and with maybe-voters; Biden isn't anywhere near as good with those who are going to vote for him anyway (which is probably almost everyone here).
I agree-- it couldn't be more obvious-- most of the time Biden doesn't speak up well for what he's done or for center-left principles. But he never has, as far as I can remember. That leaves a big media void at the bully pulpit while the gop hogs air time, and it's frustrating as hell to watch the SOBs prancing around and trash-talking while nobody's getting in their faces. Actually people are-- check the Oversight hearings-- but Biden isn't, and Harris isn't the Harris of the Kavanaugh hearing, and a press secretary doesn't speak with a president's heft.
OTOH, it can be argued that 1) when they hog the spotlight like that the Rs end up scaring the dogs and children, and 2) they're running a primary that the political press insists for some reason is "competitive" and wants to cover it that way, so trying to get that press interested in another story line right now is playing Canute yelling at the tide to stop it from coming in.
I don't know that this is what Biden and his people are doing, just saying it's plausible. He clearly isn't playing to the ones who'll vote for him anyway, and that's potentially dangerous. But he's never done that. He's always played to the middle. That's who he is.
And he has an inside game we don't see. For example, I have a bet with myself that the White House just gave Netanyahu a subtle little shove that will end up toppling him, by releasing a statement from his latest phone call that was readable as friendly to a Palestinian state; barely visible, but hitting just the spot to knock him off his delicate balance. (It comes far too late in many ways, but who seriously thinks Bibi would let even an arms cutoff hold him back from destroying Gaza in whatever way he can? [He'd be sending the IDF in with pitchforks if it came to that, imo.] And does anyone else remember that when Biden went there in October he specifically and publicly warned Netanyahu to have a damn plan for what happens after, and have it spelled out before the troops go in? I remember he got a lot of shit at the time for raining on the revenge parade. It was called a "sour note" or something like that.)
I'm not saying Biden is God, just more like yes, for people who want a champion for their causes he's frustrating to watch, and he's given a lot of ground. I tend to think he's given ground where there hasn't been much choice and otherwise has turned a lot of sows' ears into at least linen purses, if not silk (and nobody should underestimate Pelosi's role in that), and that he's much more shrewd than he might seem.
My biggest fear right now is that he and his campaign people could be underestimating the staff who are running trump's campaign now. People whose judgment I trust say they're real pros and know how to do the spadework. That's scary even though their candidate's thin skin, world-encompassing ego, and outright insanity are their worst handicap. I hope the hell Biden and his people are up to that.
"My biggest fear right now is that he and his campaign people could be underestimating the staff who are running trump's campaign now."
I have a lot of fears, but that's not one. Biden's team won v trump in 2016, have governed well for the last 3 years and from what i've read are very aware of the trump team's improvement and risks, so I am giving credit where it's due and trusting them.
edit: won in 2020.
It's pretty straightforward, really.
Atrios (and he is hardly alone on the left) says transparently stupid things like "it is the apparent outer limit of what Biden wants" as a way to avoid acknowledging that the electorate as presently constituted, in our current political system, places very hard limits on what liberals can get done.
The same shit has happened to every Democratic president in my adult lifetime (so, all 3 of them). They always go for more than the voters-in-the-system are ready to permit, and they always get (partially) smacked down as a result. And that should be to their credit!
The idiotic thing is then pretending that they didn't try, and then blaming them for this fictitious lack of effort, when what they actually did do, and fail to do, both show that they were quite actively pushing the limits of the politically possible.
It would be funny if it weren't so damn infuriating, because it's one of the most effective ways the left has of limiting their own power and they are mostly oblivious to this effect, and choose to pretend it doesn't (can't) happen.
Definitely.
Alternatively every dem President in the last 32 years has been a pretty conservative “centrist” at best and the Dem party holds the votes of any leftist or “progressive” voters hostage.
It’s very boring and stupid, but of course you see the genius in it so what do you think that says about you?
Several commenters in this thread point out the central problem.....the details dont really matter. Its the public narrative that makes all the difference.
We see in this thread that none of this makes a difference, nobody cares:
- massive infrastructure investment and related new jobs
- near elimination of childhood poverty
- ending of pointless wars
- continued expansion of public health insurance
Who cares.
This is unfortunately true. Between Fox, AM talk radio, and Sinclair broadcasting, Republicans have an entire media ecosystem across the country dedicated to slagging Biden and the Democrats 24/7. Democrats sort of have a few pundits on MSNBC and some columnists at the NYT in their corner and that's about it and the consumers of those views are absolutely dwarfed by the number of people being exposed to the Fox/talk radio narrative. So the public narrative is that basically Biden has spent the last three years engineering a wave of illegal immigration and probably doing coke with Hunter in the Oval Office.
This campaign is going to be a real slog.
A lot of what Biden did in 2021 was big, of course, but perceived to be (and sold as) just necessary in the life-or-death context of the pandemic. So, not really that big. Ones and dones. Biden's stands on other issues that would be really big, like Medicare for All, hobbling the power of the Supreme Court, eliminating the electoral college, making the CTC permanent, getting the ERA passed, a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to vote, ending the Reagan era in general, do seem to remain out-of-bounds to Biden. It doesn't matter that he might not be able to deliver anything big, he doesn't aim big. This was the problem a lot of us had with him during the 2020 campaign. I know he's the best president since Roosevelt, but we need someone even better now. Younger voters feel this intuitively.
If we arent jumping the shark, it doesnt count!
Big things arent enough if we can imagine something bigger!
Politics as bad entertainment. It sells and the people demand it.
"... but we need someone even better now"
You first need to first find that "someone better". Until then, you need to go with what you have.
Most Democrats didn't bother to look.
Biden won in 2020 because he had been VP and was not Trump. With people's memories fading, that will not be good enough in 2024. The Democratic Party doesn't have anyone younger and at least on a par with Biden? If so, they are a sad excuse for a political party.
The electoral defeat of Democrats this year will be very unfortunate, but entirely deserved.
Deserved because...?
Because they didn't see the need to explore other candidate possibilities.
Because they rolled over in acquiescence to an extremely unwise decision made by Biden to run again despite his unpopularity and age.
Did you see the latest reported polls? Biden behind by 5 to 11 points.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/
lol, brilliant.
YOU DIDNT LOOK HARD ENOUGH! I HAVE NO IDEAS OR SUGGESTIONS, THIS IS YOUR FAULT!
Biden may have received the most votes ever, but its hard to counter this kind of brilliant insight.
Nice CAPS!
How would he do any of those things?
He'd start by wanting to do them. He doesn't seem to want to do them, whether it's because, like Obama, and like you I'd guess, he can't imagine how to do them, or he disagrees with them as policy goals. Anyway, when the topic is "big things," first they're part of your vision, then you define them as goals you want to do, then you commit to getting them done by means available or creating new ways of getting them done.
In short, the American way.
Biden needs to be unafraid to speak up more & to have better spokespeople- quicker to counter the lies. like Jasmine Crockett.
I think the SAVE plan is actually a lot better than the partial debt jubilee that was struck down. The new plan is affordable for borrowers, is well-targeted to people with lower earnings, ends the ballooning of debt via accumulated interest, and stretches far into the future, so yesterday's, today's, and tomorrow's students can benefit.
Despite the clear benefits, it gets little coverage and little excitement, largely because understanding it involves math. Americans understand $10,000. They do not understand 5% of AGI minus 225% of poverty level. Nor do they understand numbers in the billions or trillions of dollars. Reporters tend to be just as bad at math as average Americans, making it harder for anything involving math to get through to the public consciousness.
Biden's successes either involve numbers people can't comprehend or make for bad TV. No one feels better while trying to figure out if they are stuck in some tax credit phaseout, or watching the Taliban race across Afghanistan.