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The Israeli public wants war

We live in the United States, so it's only natural that we're mostly concerned about American public opinion. But in the case of the Gaza War, Israeli public opinion is obviously more important. And among Israeli Jews, it's hawkish:

90% of Israeli Jews approved of last week's assault against Hezbollah in Lebanon. And what's the endgame?

There is no appetite for diplomacy. The vast majority of Israeli Jews simply want to destroy Hezbollah and be done with it.

Keep this in mind. Israeli Jews long ago gave up on the possibility of a negotiated settlement. Is it any wonder that Joe Biden's efforts toward a ceasefire have gone nowhere?

92 thoughts on “The Israeli public wants war

  1. middleoftheroaddem

    The concept of 'a two state solution' or 'the Arab and Jews living in peace' are concept that are popular in the US, and many western countries. Unfortunately, these ideas are unpopular with most Jews and Arabs who live in the middle east.

    In terms of Hezbollah, most Israeli jews view them a group dedicated to Israel's destruction.

    Note all of the aforementioned is supported by polls.

    1. tango

      If I am not mistaken, Hezbollah (and Hamas) ARE dedicated to Israel's destruction. I can see why the Israeli public would want to destroy them. I think if most Americans were cast in similar circumstances, we would want to destroy them too (as we did with al Qaeda).

      The real shame is that the Israeli Jew can't seem to wrap their head around the need to come to an agreement with the Palestinian Authority and get the fuck out of the West Bank. But you are right, @middle, it doesn't look like too many folks over there are down with the two-state solution.

      So indefinite conflict. And an eternity of angry posts in this comment section...

      1. middleoftheroaddem

        tango - a couple of points

        1. Unless one cherry picks a couple statements about 'long term truce' then clearly yes, both Hezbollah and Hamas are dedicated to the destruction of Isreal.

        2. For business reasons, I have been to Israel a few times. When I ask, mind you for disclosure purposes almost all my interactions have been with jews rather than Arabs, I was told over and over that 'The PA is too corrupt', ' Hamas will just take over. See what happened in Gaza', 'would it not be nice if the PA was capable, they are not.'

        As a business person I will observe, for the most part, Arabs and jews even within territorial Israel live separate lives, for the most part: they live in different neighborhoods, work separately, eat apart etc.

        1. tomtom502

          Surprise! Israeli jews have vapid self-justifications for doing nothing.

          Let's all just remember two important facts:

          1. Israeli settlements make a non-violent solution harder and harder, and Israeli has continued settling Palestinian land for nigh 30 years now.

          2. The US gives lip service to the two-state solution, but is far, far, from making military aid conditional on a peace process.

          Another fact, just because it can't be repeated enough: Israel propped up Hamas because they did not want the PA to govern Gaza. How does this fit with "Hamas will just take over"? Israel preferred Hamas!

            1. gs

              I invite everyone to type
              Gaza natural gas
              into the search engine of their choice so that they can read about the Gaza gas field for themselves. There's a ton of material.

                1. ScentOfViolets

                  When he's trolling he's drinking, when he's drinking he's trolling. When he's awake he's drinking, when he's drinking he's awake.

    2. azumbrunn

      It has not always been like this. There was quite a bit of acceptance of a two state solution on both sides at some point. The precent situation was created by conservatives with maximalist ideas by expanding settlements, harassing Palestinian civilians, tolerating illegal settlements (on stolen land!) and the general grind of a decades long occupation. Not to mention massive demagoguery and a Prime minister who is a demagogue and also a crook.

      It is an unsustainable course and I believe the experiment "Israel" has now definitively failed if the goal was to create a democratic state as a homeland for Jewish people.

      1. MF

        You don't think it has anything to do with Palestinians who considered terrorism an acceptable way to achieve their goals?

        1. TheMelancholyDonkey

          Yes, it does. It also has to do with Jewish Israelis who consider terrorism and illegal settlements an acceptable way to achieve their goals.

    3. MF

      The idea of Jews and Arabs living together in peace is very popular with Jews.

      The idea of Jews being attacked without fighting back because of a futile dream of living in peace with people who are happy for their children to die killing Jews is not popular.

      1. TheMelancholyDonkey

        No. They prefer, instead, for the Palestinians to be attacked without fighting back because of a futile dream of living in peace with people who are happy to kill their children.

  2. CAbornandbred

    It sure does seem hopeless. We, the US, have very little we can do short of cutting off shipments of weapons. That's a big thing, but would we do it? We haven't in the past 20 years. Probably not.

    1. tomtom502

      Politically impossible for now. But young people see Israel differently. It is hard for me to imagine any future Democratic president unconditionally supporting Israel as Biden has.

  3. painedumonde

    I was of this opinion a month or two into the campaign last year – they have made their plans abundantly clear. We, as a nation, haven't been listening, and I think our government has been two faced about it.

    I've said it before: there will be an occupation, the settlements will continue to expand, the United States will not stop those actions.

    1. Jasper_in_Boston

      It goes well beyond “not stopping.” The United States is the key enabler and backer of Israel’s illegal imperialism-colonialism project.

      1. painedumonde

        Yes, trade and supply are enabling the violence. Even without the physical aspects, the US would/will provide great diplomatic cover...unless there is an election to consider.
        (⁠。⁠•̀⁠ᴗ⁠-⁠)

  4. ruralhobo

    I will be more cynical and say Biden's ceasefire pushes don't lead anywhere because Netanyahu wants to publicly humiliate him (and Harris) so Trump will win.

  5. D_Ohrk_E1

    We're closing in on the one-year anniversary memorial of the worst attack on Jews since WWII. They're tired of the constant existential threat and they've concluded that the only way out is to remove the threat completely. With Iran and Hezbollah constantly getting involved, Israelis have added them to the list of threats that need to be removed completely. They're exhausted by diplomacy, unconvinced that it has done anything but prolong the existential threats.

    That's how I interpret the poll.

    1. Falconer

      And what is the end game?

      Because short of killing every Shiite in Southern Lebanon & every Palestinian in Gaza, there is NO WAY Israel can win...

      And if Israel commits genocide, they lose.

      1. D_Ohrk_E1

        Regime change is the goal.

        “Hezbollah and Hamas are paralyzed temporarily and Iran is exposed,” said former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett. “Right now, they’re naked, they don’t have the ability to protect themselves. Israel has the greatest opportunity in 50 years to change the face of the Middle East.” -- WSJ via MSN

        Change the Iranian regime and the proxies stop existing because their funding has dried up. I'm explaining their thinking, not mine.

        1. Anandakos

          And how does Israel change the regime in Iran, five hundred miles and two countries (at a minimum) away? Iran has nearly ten times as many people as Israel does, so the only way to do it would be with nuclear weapons. That is a quick and one-way journey to expulsion from the society of nations. Even the US would have to break relations.

          1. MF

            The current Iranian regime is deeply unpopular with its own people.

            Shatter the Iranian economy by destroying Iran's oil infrastructure and it is very likely you get a coup or photoset uprising.

            The big question is what comes next. Unlike the Shah, who was a soft liberal compared to the ayatollahs, the current regime hasv destroyed all other potential power centers. Anything could happen next ranging from a restoration of the monarchy to a military dictatorship run by current IRGC leaders to a democracy.

            1. xmabx

              I can’t think of instance of regime change where the existing government isn’t replaced by whatever the next most significant centre of power. In Russia it was organised crime, in Iran in 79 it was Islamic militants, in Egypt it has been a revolving door between the military and Islamic militants and in Taiwan, Indonesia, South Korea and the Philippines it was pro democracy movements who had cover from the US. I’m no expert on Iran to know who for sure who the alternate power base would be but my guess is either the Military or organised crime. I doubt any pro democracy or royalist movement in Iran has anywhere near the juice to replace the exisiting regime.

          2. Tbomber

            I am struck by how Japan was/is able to forgive our WW2 actions and now has essentially embraced western societies. Could that ever happen with Arabs? I am in no way advocating a similar attack, just wondering how ...

            1. painedumonde

              Possibly the Japanese realized the same lessons that Germany did - see the Rape of Nanjing as but one example.

            2. TheMelancholyDonkey

              The post-WWII peace contained a lot of elements that aren't replicable.

              1) The Germans, though the Japanese to a much lesser extent, recognized that they started the war and that they were responsible for mass, inexcusable atrocities. This made them more amenable to occupation and reform. Whether or not you think the Palestinians should feel this way, they don't.

              2) The Anglo-Americans made it clear that they did not intend to annex any territory from either defeated power. The Israelis have made it clear that they do intend to annex much of Palestine, and its current government openly states that they intend to annex all of it.

              3) The Allies made it clear that their occupation would be of a very limited duration, and that they would return full sovereignty to Germany and Japan. They did so in ten and six years respectively. Israel has occupied Palestine for 57 years and is adamantly opposed to allowing full sovereignty.

              4) The Allies worked closely with Germans and Japanese who had been opponents of the previous regime. In Germany, this meant Konrad Adenauer and the Social Democrats. In the immediate wake of taking German territory, civil affairs officers began constructing institutions that could govern. Israel has done its best to marginalize any potential partners among the Palestinians, and has destroyed the institutions that could govern.

              5) The US and UK made it clear that they supported rebuilding the German and Japanese economies, and they poured major resources into doing so. Israel has worked hard to destroy the Palestinian economy.

              6) Perhaps most importantly, there existed an outside power that the Germans and Japanese feared and hated far more than they did the Anglo-Americans. Coalescing around resisting the Soviets gave them a powerful incentive to come to terms with us. There is no such power that could unite the Israelis and Palestinians.

        2. TheMelancholyDonkey

          Change the Iranian regime and the proxies stop existing because their funding has dried up.

          This idea persists in the fallacy that all of the problems in the Middle East are the result of regimes, rather than popular beliefs. It's exactly the same fallacy that leads people to conclude that getting rid of Netanyahu would solve the problems.

    2. jeffreycmcmahon

      It's the standard extremist playbook: sabotage things that could actually bring peace (the peace process that ended after Netanyahu incited Rabin's murder), then say that the sabotaged process isn't working so why not try something different and more forceful?

      Nobody has been more effective in destroying Israel's long-term viability as a state than Netanyahu.

  6. ScentOfViolets

    Keep this in mind. Israeli Jews long ago gave up on the possibility signalled they had no intention of a negotiated settlement for land they intended to take all along. Is it any wonder that Joe Biden's efforts toward a ceasefire have gone nowhere?

    FIFY.

  7. lower-case

    in happier news:

    A judge ripped into a Colorado county clerk for her crimes and lies before sentencing her Thursday to nine years behind bars for a data-breach scheme spawned from the rampant false claims about voting machine fraud in the 2020 presidential race.

    District Judge Matthew Barrett told former Mesa County Clerk Tina Peters — after earlier sparring with her for continuing to press discredited claims about rigged voting machines — that she never took her job seriously.

    “I am convinced you would do it all over again if you could. You’re as defiant as any defendant this court has ever seen,” Barrett told her in handing down the sentence. “You are no hero. You abused your position and you’re a charlatan.”

    Jurors found Peters guilty in August for allowing a man to misuse a security card to access to the Mesa County election system and for being deceptive about that person’s identity.

    The man was affiliated with My Pillow chief executive Mike Lindell, a prominent promoter of false claims that voting machines were manipulated to steal the election from former President Donald Trump. The discredited claims trace back to Trump himself, whose supporters attacked the U.S. Capitol because of them and who still hints at them in his third run for president.

    1. Anandakos

      Whew, that is one seriously punitive sentence. I doubt it will withstand appeal; sure, she'll do some time and of course the felony conviction will bar her from election responsibilities forever. But she didn't actually change votes or, apparently, even try to. So some appeals court will reduce her sentence to a year or two with credit if she's already served any time in jail.

    1. tomtom502

      I am so sick of people saying stuff like "Everyone is river to sea." The Palestinian Authority does not fit in that bucket and ignoring that fact is grotesque.

  8. sonofthereturnofaptidude

    The question thoughtful people seem to keep asking is along the lines of "what can the US do to promote peace in the Middle East?" I don't think that's the right question any more. I keep wondering: What can US policy in the Middle East be that won't ruin our "brand"? I mean, the US is throwing money down a rathole in the Mideast, but doing so doesn't have to involve propping up a state that's fast making itself the most hated in the world. Maybe the money and arms might be put to better use.

  9. HalfAlu

    The US can get out, leave the region. Oil is becoming less important, climate change decarbonization will lead in a year or three to reduced global oil demand. Control of middle eastern oil is no longer a high priority national security interest of the US.

      1. dilbert dogbert

        US Israel policy has everything to do with electoral politics. A massive Blue Wave could open up some space for bringing a changed policy. No wave no change.
        If the US Muslim community becomes as numerous and wealthy as the "Tribe", at least there could be some change.

    1. deathawaits

      US oil demand has basically been 20 million barrels a day since 2005.

      World oil demand will be higher in 2024 than any year in history.

  10. cmayo

    "in the case of the Gaza War, Israeli public opinion is obviously more important."

    This would (should) be true if we weren't providing billions of dollars in free weaponry to Israel. Because we are, and therefore they aren't prosecuting heinous crimes with our support, US public opinion absolutely should matter.

    The Israeli public clearly wants to conquer all of what they see as rightfully theirs - current (and former) occupants of that land be damned. Literally.

  11. Cycledoc

    Time to stop the military supplies and money to Israel. It they want to continue the war, good luck to them, but we’re recommend strongly against it.

    A two state solution is the only possible outcome that might lead to stability.

    Neither side is completely innocent in the run up to this war. True, Hamas did terrible things on October 7th, but Israel has been doing terrible things in the West Bank and Gaza for 40 or 50 years.

    Neither has an apparent exit strategy. We need to bow out sort of gracefully having given Israel more than a reasonable amount of support. We need to stop it.

  12. sdean7855

    The important questions unasked of the Israelis:
    1) Do Palestinians have any rights whatsoever to property in the lands of what once thousands of years ago was Biblically Judaic.but which has been theirs for hundreds of year recently and was promised them in the Balfour agreement..
    2) Are Palestinians to be allowed to live in those lands.

    The answer is none and no. Like the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, Palestinians in Israel are to exterminated.

    1. Anandakos

      It seems that your chilling simile is true. If so, WTF? How can a people who suffered that pain want to inflict it on others. It's the "Jews" from Russia who are at the crux of this stupidity.

      1. ScentOfViolets

        Well, these aren't your cultured, intellectual Vienna-type 19/20 century type Jews; these are your ignorant, greedy, asshole Fundamentalist type Jews. Big difference. Fundamentalists of any religion, Abrahamic or otherwise, tend to ignorant, intolerant, greedy assholes. This instance is merely a case of self-selection.

    2. MF

      Why is this question separate from the question of Jews who historically lived in places like Iran and Syria?

      Any final resolution will need to recognize that the population transfers that happened are irrevocable and compensate the Arabs and Jews that lost their land and other possessions with money from the countries that kicked them out topped up with cash from deep pocket countries with an interest in ending the Israel Palestinian conflict.

      1. TheMelancholyDonkey

        Why is this question separate from the question of Jews who historically lived in places like Iran and Syria?

        Because the Palestinians weren't responsible for those expulsions.

        Any final resolution will need to recognize that the population transfers that happened are irrevocable

        Which is fine, if it is negotiated. Palestinian refugees have a legal right to return to the property that they or their parents and grandparents own. You are demanding that they give up this right.

        The Jews that were expelled from various Arab countries are in a very different legal position. When they accepted Israeli citizenship, they gave up the status of being refugees and thus do not have a legal right to return to where they came from.

    3. tomtom502

      Good questions. I suspect honest answers would be:

      1) Nope. No rights they are bound to respect. (Google "Bound to respect" and Roger Taney)

      2) Palestinians who obsequiously submit are allowed to live in those lands. Otherwise get out.

      1. TheMelancholyDonkey

        Or die. Bezalel Smotrich has explicitly and openly stated that those are the only three options that the Palestinians should be allowed.

  13. golack

    Israel has tried this before, and it didn't work. But this time will be different....

    (Referring to the war in Lebanon. Attacking Hamas after their atrocity was valid--but after devastating the Gaza strip, Israel still haven't recovered many of them, so move on the Lebanon. How long did it take the US to get bin Laden?)

    1. MF

      A big chunk of Israel is currently evacuated due to Hezbollah rockets.

      What would the US do if we had to evacuate all the land within 200 miles of the Mexican border due to rocket attacks that the Mexican government was unable to stop by a group demanding that the US return Hawaii to the native Hawaiians?

      1. Adam Strange

        In a case like that, the US government would probably do to the Mexicans something very similar to what it did to the Comanches, who were raiding white settler farms. But today, it wouldn't take forty years to resolve the situation.

      2. TheMelancholyDonkey

        This hypothetical o "What would the US do if Mexico . . ." is profoundly stupid. It's an attempt to pretend that context doesn't matter.

        Mexico has no historical relationship, or ethnic kinship, with native Hawaiians.

        It's been almost two centuries since the US stole and annexed land belonging to Mexico.

        The US hasn't spent the last 57 years occupying any part of Mexico and denying citizenship in any state to the Mexicans that live there.

        The US doesn't routinely conduct airstrikes on Mexico, though Donald Trump has expressed a desire to do so.

  14. James B. Shearer

    "... Is it any wonder that Joe Biden's efforts toward a ceasefire have gone nowhere?"

    Only if you consider it axiomatic that the US will not use its considerable leverage over Israel to get it to do things it is not entirely happy with.

    1. tomtom502

      Every time the US tries to leverage Israel it backs. Bush Sr. and Obama tried, the blowback was too great.

      Politically it is a loser in the US, as Israel continues being heinous that could change. There is a generational split forming.

      1. ScentOfViolets

        Or perhaps the fact that there is a generational split forming is exactly why Israel is picking up the pace on its atrocities. They don't have a leisurely hundred years of ethnic cleansing now, more like twenty-five to get the job done and present the world a fait accompli.

  15. Justin

    The Iranian official who spoke to Al Jazeera said that in the message to the US, Iran reiterated the need to curb Israel “and its unbridled madness” in the region.

    Hilarious. They poke the bear and then cry about the consequences. I thought they were winning! Everyone there is a jackass.

  16. pjcamp1905

    Joe Biden's efforts go nowhere because all he does is wring his hands and plead. We have immense leverage on Israel. Suppose we cut off the flow of arms? Are most Israelis still going to think that? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm pretty sure most of them view their relationship with the US as a pretty valuable thing.

    Further, there is plenty of reason to cut them off. Netanyahu has systematically violated both international and US law, and treats the US like a client state, confident in the knowledge that we won't do a damn thing about it. Netanyahu has said he'll go it alone if necessary. Let him. His actions are not in our national interest.

    This is not to say I support Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't. It is to say that there are no clean hands in the region and the sooner we stop pretending there are, the sooner we stop pretending Israel is some kind of democracy, the better.

  17. Citizen99

    I'm surprised Kevin did not comment on the fact that a majority of Arabs *agreed* with Israel's action against Hezbollah or *don't know*. I assume these were Arabs living in Israel, but still . . .

  18. Coby Beck

    Ayman Safadi is the Foreign Minister of Jordan. Israel has had multiple formal offers of peaces from arab nation coalitions. They choose land over security every time.

    AYMAN SAFADI: The prime minister [Netanyahu] came here today and said that Israel is surrounded by those who want to destroy it, an enemy. We’re here, members of a Muslim Arab committee mandated by 57 Arab and Muslim countries, and I can tell you here, very unequivocally, all of us are willing to right now guarantee the security of Israel in the context of Israel ending the occupation and allowing for the emergence of a Palestinian state, independent state, along the term and preference that you all agree.

    He is creating that danger because he simply does not want the two-state solution. And if he does not want the two-state solution, can you ask the Israeli officials what is their endgame, other than just wars and wars and wars? I’m telling you, all of us in the Arab world here, we want a peace in which Israel lives in peace and security, accepted, normalized with all Arab countries, in the context of ending the occupation, withdrawing from our territory, allowing for the emergence of an independent sovereign Palestinian state on June 4, 1967, lines with occupied Jerusalem as capital. That is our narrative. That is. And we will guarantee Israel’s security in that context. Can you ask Israelis what’s their narrative, other than “I’m going to continue go to war. I’m going to kill this and kill that and destroy this and that”?

    The amount of damage that the Israeli government has done, 30 years of efforts to convince people that peace is possible, this Israeli government killed it. The amount of dehumanization, hatred, bitterness will take generations to navigate through.

    So, ultimately, the question is — we want peace, and we’ve laid out a plan for peace. Ask any Israeli official what is their plan for peace, you’ll get nothing, because they are only thinking of the first step — “We’re going to go destroy Gaza, enflame the West Bank, destroy Lebanon” — and after that, they have no plan. We have a plan. We have no partner for peace in Israel. There is a partner for peace in the Arab world.

    (source)

  19. samgamgee

    The US and it's citizens are under no obligation to fund Israel's wars or subjugation of Palestinians. The US should just be prepared to defend them if invaded, but that's it.

    Course AIPAC and all the other influencers have made the US their pet bully and bank. Just look at how they've broken one of the most American traditions. Protesting a government is ok, unless it's Israel. Amazing, how easily cowed the US is.

  20. Chris

    This is why it's so infuriating when liberals try to sound reasonable by blaming Netanyahu or by calling for a "two-state solution". It's dishonest not to acknowledge that Israel is rotten to its core.

  21. Lon Becker

    This is the problem with the child's version of the region that Drum seems to believe and that is so popular in Israel. Israelis buy a fairy tale story in which they offered the Palestinians peace in 2020, Arafat rejected this and pulled out of peace talks and started the second intifada. Despite this after the second intifada Israel pulled out of Gaza as a step towards peace only to again be met with violence.

    The problem, of course, is that every step in this view is complete BS. Barak's offer in 2020 was so bad that the US simply assumed it was not his real offer. They tried to convince the Palestinians that they should ignore both what the Israelis said and did and assume they want peace because they are the good guys. Not surprisingly the Palestinians tended to judge Israel instead by what they said and did.

    It was Israel that pulled out of the peace talks when Sharon was elected. And by all appearances the second intifada started exactly the same way all such expressions of anger do, like BLM protests, with anger that mostly hurt Palestinian businesses. The Israelis chose to put the protests down with force which led to more violence, as happens with protests in the US. Then Israel instituted a policy of assassinating Palestinian leaders. Most Israelis died in retaliations for such assassinations. Without this inane policy the death toll from the second intifada would likely be halved. And it was when Israel abandoned the policy that the second intifada ended. (Which is to say there was the last assassination, the last retaliatory bombing, the last retaliatory slaughter of Palestinians civilians in response to the bombing and then the intifada was over).

    The story with Gaza is similar. Sharon inanely claimed that Abbas was no different than Hamas and so did not make pulling out of Gaza part of a peace negotiation. That made it clear to the Palestinians that the pull out was a victory for Hamas violence since there was no chance Israel would pull out otherwise. Sharon appeased the settlers by increasing settlement behavior in the West Bank assuring them that that was a surer way to prevent peace than keeping a token settlement population in Gaza. (So far he has been proven right). He also, in petty and cruel fashion, closed the border to Gaza for exports as punishment for pushing the settlements out, thereby tanking the economy in one of the poorest parts of the world. This had the effect of warning foreign countries not to invest in Gaza since there investment would be at the whim of a capricious overlord.

    So in the real world, the Palestinians under the PA have been positively anxious to negotiate for a real state. The stable Arab countries have either reached peace with Israel or shown an eagerness to do so, despite Israel's habit of violating their sovereignty (like carrying out an assassination attempt in Jordan). But the Israeli public is convinced that the only reason that the Palestinians resent endless occupation is that they are anti-Semites.

    And now they think they are going to wipe out Hezbollah by occupying Southern Lebanon, possibly forgetting that Hezbollah did not exist until the last time Israel occupied Southern Lebanon.

    Israel could have a peace in which the Jewish minority controls 78% of the territory that both people claim as their homeland. But they want 100% and so have developed this self-serving fantasies to justify not reaching peace. The US has not done them any favors by buying into these fantasies.

    1. tomtom502

      "The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Of the gods we believe, and of men we know, that by a necessary law of their nature they rule wherever they can."

      Thucydides

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