Here's the difference between political junkies and normal people:
Me, political junkie: Can you believe this shit? Gas stoves! They think we're going to take their gas stoves away from them. What a bunch of lunatics. This been going on for almost a week now just because some bureaucrat made a comment about gas being dangerous for kids. Don't conservatives even care that their children are going to develop asthma? And what's wrong with induction stoves, anyway? They're great! Even professional chefs like them. And it's better for the environment, too. But no. It's another round of "Liberals want to take away your ______ ." I'm so sick of this shit. Yesterday, nine out of 20 posts on the front page of the National Review blog were about fucking gas stoves. These guys just . . .
You, a normal person: Huh?
Well, Sylvia Plath had a bad experience with a gas oven
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The BBC online had an article on how gas stoves were responsible for children's asthma. I went to the CDC of course. CDC said childhood asthma decreased 50% over a span of 2003 to 2013. https://www.cdc.gov/vitalsigns/childhood-asthma/index.html
Of course BBC also had an article on how automobile pollution was responsible.
Click Bait.
Life in general is responsible for everything. Get rid of people and problem solved!!!
Me: huh?
What? Ban gas stoves? Next thing they will be taking the lead out of gasoline, making us wear seat belts in cars, making football players wear helmets and freeing the slaves. Where will it all end?
Except of course no one is planning on banning gas stoves for safety reasons.
But some localities are proposing to phase them out, that part of the kerfuffle was for real.
Based on the recent reactions of KD to recent news items, I don't expect to see many more posts about his too-conservative or supposed Republican leanings. Sounds like someone fed up & not gonna take it anymore! Their pettiness & unashamed lying are exasperating & exhausting.
I'm about as liberal they come but I sure hate electric stoves. Almost impossible to cook decently with them. My experience is only with old burner types though.
Maybe they've gotten better (not "HOT HOT HOT" ... now "cold cold cold" - repeat). Ovens I don't care about as much.
Induction stoves are radically different from the old electric coil models used by Carol Bracy and Alice. An increasing number of chefs prefer them.
We remodeled our kitchen a year ago and installed an induction range. We cook a lot and we love it. Fast and responsive and a cinch to clean.
Would I suggest someone purchase one? Depends on your needs and your home's infrastructure. But for a remodel or a new home, absolutely.
Just make sure the pots and pans (bottoms that is) are magnetic so they'll work with the induction "burner".
So are you saying that new electric stoves won't work with copper or aluminum pots. My cast aluminum fry pan is one of my favorite fry pans to cook with.
You can use a diffuser place between the element and your fave pot though. For most folks aluminum fell out of favor due to concerns about it being a safe metal to use for cookware. Copper cookware is very rare in the US as it's been an unaffordable luxury for decades.
We recently remodeled and replaced an electric stove with an induction stove. It's pretty amazing. We can bring a big pot of pasta water to boiling in just a few minutes. It generates incredible heat and keeps the temperature high when we need it. It just pumps in the energy.
Correct, but there's rarely reason to boil a big pot of water for pasta. It's a big waste of energy. See
https://www.seriouseats.com/how-to-cook-pasta-salt-water-boiling-tips-the-food-lab
ETA: if you salt correctly at 15 g per liter, it's also a big waste of salt.
The behavior of an induction stove is much closer to that of a gas stove than to that of a conventional electric stove. The control of heat level is essentially instantaneous, limited only by the thermal inertia of the pan you're using. And they have the additional advantage of having a smooth glass top that mostly doesn't get hot (only the part directly under the pan gets hot, via heat transfer from the pan itself).
You do have to have the right kind of pan; there has to be at least some ferromagnetic material in the bottom.
The only annoyance for me is that they have a safety feature where they turn off when you remove the pan for more than a few seconds. I'd prefer that they turned off temporarily (they have to, because the heat is being generated in the iron or steel in the pan), then turned back on if you replace the pan within 30 seconds or so.
I bought an induction hotplate to see if they were as wonderful as advertised. I like everything about it except: I can't get a slow simmer. The one I bought, at least, has discreet temps, and it goes from really hot to a boil. Do the newer induction stoves have continuous temps? I love the ability to clean it, and almost all of my pots and pans already worked with it. And I especially love that it's a lot safer than gas. But I'm leery of getting a whole new stove because I love everything about our gas stove except that it's impossible to clean.
I run out and buy every new energy saving or safety-inducing device, and I always wish I hadn't. Had to replace the energy-saving furnace (and that was a huge financial hit) because every time it got cold the thing stopped working. And had to replace the water-saving toilet because the only way we could get it to flush was to pour a bucket of water into the toilet. I LOVE the idea of new and better technology, but I HATE the way the reviewers rave about it before it's ready for prime time.
I'm absolutely certain I heard about this problem with gas stoves in the 1970s.
Then, as now, the answer is likely to be “Use your range hood”
That said, as someone who has used electric all his life, gas stoves could disappear tomorrow and I don’t think I’d care. Though as I’m still waiting for an induction cooktop to arrive (as part of a remodel which has ditched a gas furnace for a heat pump) perhaps I’d prefer the gas stoves not disappear for a months or three…
I've used both gas and electric stoves. The problem with the gas stove was that it lacked a proper "simmer" setting; when you turned the flame really low it would go out. Electric stoves, especially smooth tops (not induction) have a lot of thermal inertia but you get used to that and learn to lead your temperature changes appropriately.
The/a study be cited concerning gas stoves had this to say:
Gah. Format fail.
Edit function.
PLEASE!
I'm guessing that presumes the range hoods vent to the outside. Some just have metal grate to trap oil droplets and vent to the room.
I can’t say I’ve undertaken an exhaustive survey… but I don’t think I’ve seen a recirculating vent hood with a gas stove.
I have. The house we bought two years ago had been remodeled in around 2017, and it had a cool looking (at any rate) combo range hood microwave over a six burner gas stove.
Imagine my surprise when I fired up the stove, turned on the "range hood" and got a blast of hot air in the forehead.
We replaced that, stat.
You're assuming that America's housing stock has proper ventilation. Alas it does not - a ton of houses, townhouses and condos have a microwave over a gas stove so they don't have true vent hoods. Yikes.
Over the stove microwaves generally have a vent hood function built in. Mine does, and it works well.
Unsurprising that a downwardly-mobile working class isn't persuaded by "even chef's like them" when you're talking about $1200 in electrical upgrades and a stove that's twice as expensive.
You may have noticed that many working-class folks don't cook at home much any more. They eat mass-produced fast food, grab-and-go food and frozen stuff. It's part of the reason that there is an epidemic of obesity in much of the country.
What a cop out. Even if poor people eat out a lot - and I would guess that's across the economic spectrum and depends more on available time for cooking - that's a lot of money.
Since when do good liberals look down on poor people?
A ton of those folks are already cooking on old school electric coil ranges as cheapo housing has cheapo appliances.
Majority of people cooking on electric coil are renters and it's not clear why the landlord will spoil them with induction rather than more of the same.
Surprising gas stoves don't require adequate external ventilation, like hot water heaters and furnaces do. Kitchens in older homes are often expensive or impossible to update, but wouldn't all housing built in the past fifty years or so have vent hoods and external ducting built in?
They do. The difference is there aren’t interconnects between the gas stove and the range hood, and too many people it seems don’t use their range hoods…
Honest to god Biden should get out there and give a speech saying exactly that. He's at his best warning people what to do so they don't harm themselves or their families. Like that scene in Ordinary People where Mary Tyler Moore rebuts her friends down in Texas and tells them "But first you better make sure your kids are good and safe, that they haven't fallen of a horse, been hit by a car, or drown in that swimming pool you're so proud of!"
You' re wrong. There's a ton of places in the US where gas stoves are allowed without proper ventilation. Nobody yet is forcing old housing stock to update kitchens to fix this. I do know this was the case when my house was restored after a house fire.
Nope. Mine built 1994. No venting of gas range.
Incidents of asthma in children are supposedly higher in homes with gas appliances than those without, but I have no idea how robust the studies behind that are. A bigger concern is that gas stoves, water heaters, furnaces, etc., which are in most US home, are huge contributors to greenhouse emissions. I like cooking on gas, personally, but would consider switching to an induction stove if, say, there were some rebates or tax credits offered. Switching to tankless electric water heater should be pretty easy and save money (and CO2) over the long term as well. And if I were building a new house on a suitable lot, I would definitely go for geothermal heat/cooling.
...but would consider switching to an induction stove if, say, there were some rebates or tax credits offered.
Pretty sure the IRA legislation includes just such a provision.
It does 🙂
My understanding is that more than 50% of natural gas is a byproduct of oil extraction. If it weren't captured the industry would either burn it off or let it escape into the atmosphere (in countries where there are no anti-pollution regulations).
Also remember that natural gas is a mixture of methane and ethane. Methane is 80x more potent as a greenhouse gas than CO2. Ethane is also a more efficient trapper of heat than CO2, but I don't remember how it rates against CO2 and methane. However, ethane is nastier as an air pollutant. Admittedly, both gases break down in the atmosphere over time under UV light, but it would be well to remember that a lot of climate scientists are more concerned about methane than CO2.
So, by using natural gas, you're actually converting worse greenhouse gasses into a significantly less harmful greenhouse gas. Otherwise, these gasses would either be vented into the atmosphere by petroleum drilling operations around the world, or they'd be burned off and the energy wasted (as they are with those big gas flares that can be seen from satellites off the coast of Nigeria).
Okay, so you're saying that if we could cut our use of natural gas for cooking and home heating by nearly 50%, then we might be able to quit drilling for natural gas at all. That sounds great. Thanks for that insight!
That didn't come out right. Let's say that if we were able to reduce use of natural gas by almost 50%, then we wouldn't have to drill for it. Sounds like reducing use of gas for cooking and heating is a good first step.
LoL! Yes, but you've still got a hella lot of super heat-retaining natural gases that you either have to burn off (and waste as an energy source) or that will otherwise escape to pollute the atmosphere. Or you can just those gasses to heat water and cook with—and to power LNG busses and Amazon delivery vans—and don't forget about the crematoriums!
It isn’t necessary to try to pry gas stoves from someone’s burnt fingers. Banning new gas stoves will work just fine albeit more slowly because the existing gas stoves won’t last forever, new ones won’t be available, and parts will become increasingly scarce.
https://www.hrblock.com/tax-center/lifestyle/how-long-do-appliances-last/amp/ suggests twenty years is the upper end of the … range for gas stove longevity.
Well, I enjoyed the Consumer Reports article on "How a Do-Gooder Paid Through the Nose to Boil Water A Little Faster", a discussion on converting from a gas cooktop to induction.
First, tap off the gas lines. Next, have a high amperage outlet and wiring installed. This can involve a major rewiring effort for your entire house, if it's "old." Install new cooktop. Buy new cook pans.
The simplest solution is to move to a new(er) house wired for an electric range. Also wired for an electric car; might as well kill two endangered birds with the same stone.
In short, it's an affectation for the affluent.
Good call! I forgot about rewiring my house as another downside to adopting induction stoves.
Plus, I'd have to give up all my affectively-affluent copper saucepans that I spent a lot of money collecting over the years!
And I'd have to pull out my gas fireplace and go back to burning wood on Xmas Eve—which is a wonderfully renewable resource—but it creates air pollution issues.
We built a new home that is all electric. We don’t even have a gas hookup. Induction stove tops are great in many ways, not so much in a few ways.
It is amazing how quickly you can boil a pot of water on an induction stove. Great for making coffee or tea or pasta.
I’m not a great chef but I cook my own meals. You need to get an appropriate pan for cooking well on an induction stove. I like one I just got from Cristel, admittedly a little pricey, but it works really well.
We live in the Bay Area which is a mild climate so we put the hot water heater and the HVAC heat pumps outside. This saves us a lot of space indoors. We got a Sanden heat pump water heater which is a very interesting technology.
All electric!!! A Medallion Home!!!
Reminds of a time long ago and forgotten about. The New England energy crisis. A pilot friend had to move from the Bay Area to the New York area to get a bump up to Captain status at PanAm. He and the wife looked for a house. The real estate agents would make a point that in the all electric houses one could close off the upstairs and live downstairs. I guess that energy crisis has been solved.
See, the numbers guy in me wants to know what some of these numbers are. How strong is the effect, and so on.
Because the numbers guy in me went through using cloth diapers for 6 months with our first child up until we had to travel and used some disposables. We didn't go back. Later I discovered that some sampling of landfill showed that the percentage of a landfill that was disposable diapers was maybe 0.1 percent. One tenth of one percent. I concluded that there were things I could do that would make a whole lot more difference in saving the Earth than using cloth diapers.
Now let's hear your opinion on banning plastic straws... There is a lot of performativity involved in saving the Earth, it seems.
Actually .1 percent seems high to me, at least high enough to care about. What did you end up doing to make a whole lot more difference?
Meanwhile, the administrative state, Biden edition, is about to crack down on electric vehicles because they are so damned heavy they make the rest of us unsafe. They don't have to be heavy of course, but Americans like their vehicles 1)enormous 2)overpowered.
Real Americans burn whale oil.
From my cold, dead hand!!
I'd be surprised if gas stoves don't cause a bump up in the risk of all lung ailments, not just asthma. Also, from what I understand, methane molecules leak into the air in your home even when the burner is turned off. Induction's the way to go from what I can see. (For the record I have a gas stove; this is a rental in Beijing). I like it just fine, but it does heat the kitchen up something fierce.
Ultimately, decarbonization means switching just about everything to electricity except maybe air travel (liquid hydrogen?).
I sure don't know so I expect Kevin will provide a chart, but electricity, centrally generated and supplied does generate heat as a byproduct. There was a large concern movement back in the 70s / 80s IIRC about heat generated from electric plants. And looking at where we are now it's hard to argue it wasn't correct. Way too many problems to solve just thinking about gas stoves.
"from what I understand, methane molecules leak into the air in your home even when the burner is turned off."
Probably not. Home gas has been required to contain mercaptan since 1937 because the human nose is exceptionally sensitive to it at concentrations of a few ppb. (For the obvious reason of avoiding explosions from slow leaks accumulating; see Wikipedia "New London school explosion"). If leaking methane was common we'd know about it.
Probably not.
Maybe it's wrong, but the latest science indicates that, yes, stoves leak gas even when the burners are turned off. Per my understanding, this, in part, is what has prompted the new, more skeptical stance toward gas stoves:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/27/climate/gas-stoves-methane-emissions.html#:~:text=Gas%20stoves%20leak%20significant%20amounts,human%20health%20and%20climate%20change.
Maybe that's true, but the always-interesting Farhad Manjoo has this to say in today's NYT:
if you want to make a significant dent in your home’s environmental impact, cooking isn’t the place to start. Heating and cooling is. On average, about half of the energy used by American households goes to space heating and air-conditioning; an additional 20 percent goes to heating water. Everything else — lighting, refrigeration, TVs, computers, clothes drying and cooking — accounts for less than 30 percent of the average household’s energy usage.
(https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/opinion/gas-induction-stove-environment.html
He is speaking solely about environmental impact to the planet. The issue being discussed with gas ranges is with adverse impact to health of humans in the individual dwelling.
So you do live in Beijing.
"Ultimately, decarbonization means switching just about everything to electricity except maybe air travel (liquid hydrogen?)."
And then all that electricity must be powered by solar, wind, or nuclear. Airplane travel would need to be banned (except for the rich, famous, and powerful). I don't see liquid hydrogen replacing Jet A as a solution that will be ready before the environmental apocalypse that is always about 10-20 years out.
I can't remember ever seeing a gas range in someone's house. I can't say there never was one, I'm not a kitchen inspector. But old fashioned electric ranges are what;s normal to me. The love of gas is a mystery to me.
There was a guy on NPR talking about powering planes with hydrogen. This has got to be the craziest thing since the "hydrogen economy". It would have to be liquid hydrogen, kept down under 30 deg K, and under pressure. Hydrogen is flammable over a huge range of percentages in air. Can anyone really imagine fueling up airliners with this stuff?
There is a pilot plant being built in Norway that will make standard liquid fuels by using electricity to crack water for hydrogen and reacting it with carbon dioxide pulled from the air. IF this works out, air travel can be carbon neutral without daily explosions. Of course the fuel may cost $15/gal, but you guys need to fly less anyway.
Yes, people can imagine running an airliner on Hydrogen. The folks at Leeham News had an entire series on it. You can start at: https://leehamnews.com/2020/07/24/bjorns-corner-the-challenges-of-hydrogen-part-1-background/
Interesting article, and interesting comments on that article.
Yes, many of the comments were interesting. In one of the articles linked to the article the author lists better routing, more use of bio-fuels, more efficient engines, and synthetic fuels (in that order) as the near term route to reducing air travel's carbon footprint. Sounds reasonable.
Other than that, he seems to be saying that hydrogen fueled engines are a more practical approach to long range, high speed, air travel than batteries with existing technology. Absolutely right. But does that mean we should go all in on hydrogen powered aircraft? NO! One can imagine that someday battery powered aircraft can do the job. I find it much easier to imagine that synthetic fuels will do it. It will take more than a series of low information content, two paragraph articles by some journalist to convince me that this hydrogen idea has any merit at all.
Suppose we postpone the aircraft propulsion question and concentrate on the damn low hanging apples. How about spending very serious money on improving home insulation, on more efficient household and industrial devices, on more solar and wind power, on more energy storage, on conversion to electric vehicles, on replacing trucking with rail, and on reducing ocean shipping by manufacturing locally. Oh, kill cryptocurrencies too.
What about restaurants? I’ve never seen restaurants using electric cooktops.
Many chefs indeed are making the shift to induction. It's faster, and allows greater precision/accuracy.
There are other ways to compactly store hydrogen, such as adsorption or metal hydrides. These aren't likely to be practical for aircraft, because of the weight involved.
Fun fact: There is a lot of hydrogen dissolved in stainless steel (a byproduct of the manufacturing process). If you were to take the hydrogen in an ordinary chunk of stainless steel, and put it, in gas form, into a container of the same volume as that chunk, it would be at several times atmospheric pressure.
There are two kinds of people in the world...
1. People with a sense of humor
2. People without
Politics is hardly a barrel of laughs, but conservatives in particular are among the creepiest, unfunniest people on Earth.
The gas stoves thing could have been good for a few laughs, if they had stopped there. But now they are talking about passing a law to ban "any rule or guidance that bans gas stoves." So over-the-top. What a bunch of nutcases.
https://twitter.com/daveweigel/status/1613973994990096384
The Latinx thing is silly, also good for a laugh or two. What does AR Gov. S. H. Sanders want to do? Ban the f'ing word! C'mon.
Woke has its share of silliness too. Who's the GOP front on the issue? The unfunniest man in America, Ron F'ing DeSantis.
This, on the other hand, is pretty damned funny.
https://twitter.com/TSting18/status/1614004620208254977
Hello - as a conservative with a sense of humor, I am glad to find a liberal with a sense of humor. That was a great SNL skit. Worthy of the days when SNL was funny. Maybe SNL will still be a show when I shuffle off this mortal coil.
What? You calling me NORMal???
I am hitting on 80 years and finally got my gas stove that I wished for all of my life. Now they are going to take it away! Is there no justice in this world!!!!!
I'm guessing your tongue is planted firmly in cheek, but in the event that's not the case, nobody is going to take your gas stove away. I doubt we're going to see stringent federal regulations in this regard, either, any time soon.
But we are seeing a bit of municipal regulation/restriction of gas stoves in terms of new construction, and I gather higher income folks are likewise pushing into induction and away from gas. I don't think anybody needs to go out and buy a new stove tomorrow morning, especially if they've got a sizable collection of aluminium cookware, especially if this is a major hit to their budgets.
But I likewise believe anyone who needs to buy a new stove regardless should probably look seriously at induction options, and might well regret going with gas (3-4 years down the line). And there's a tax credit available to defray the cost, I'm told.
The developed world is moving to a post-fire society. It started with light bulbs, but now we are moving from fire to electricity. Look at electric cars, induction stoves, heat pumps, electric arc furnaces and so on. It just makes more sense to shove electrons around than to rely on hard to control high temperature chemical reactions.
https://medium.com/@Kaleberg/we-are-moving-to-a-post-fire-society-a80e99465c78
As for conservatives, they'll complain about anything. It's the change they hate whether it is for good or ill. Granted, they are more likely to complain about change for the better.
This
To be fair, if the media reported on other fields like they do politics, everyone could look dumb.
I can rant endlessly about the broken stupidity of the modern web delivery technology stack - indirection piled on indirection for a combination of historical reasons and compromises to make centralization work for providers like Amazon rather than being good for particular workloads, stupid metaphors that drive engineers to do things in stupid ways, all constantly reimplemented over and over in different ADHD flavor-of-the-month variations.
Normal person: The internet's down.
"This been going on for almost a week now just because some bureaucrat made a comment about gas being dangerous for kids. " In fact, they had a formal and legitimaterequst file citing the definitive academic research that gas stoves, in particular ubnvenitalted gas stoves result in higher rates of asthma. Thus, as is legally required, they've begun the process to see if new regulations is required. Period. Usually this process returns the answer that no new regulations are required. The lying scum on the right has deliberately misinterpreted this as Joe Biden himself is planning on banning gas stoves. What is particular lily hilarious is the national review writer comparing the danger of gas stoves to research from the mid teens that showed electric stoves are far more likely to cause house fires and so they should be banning electric stoves. This is hilarious because the government agency that is looking at gas stove did in fact begin this exact same regulatory process for electric stoves as a result of the above finding and actually did implement new regulations on electric stoves in 2018.
Regulation of gas stoves is inherently covered through the Building Code by way of energy efficiency, air quality, and construction. Just saying, there are multiple avenues to slowly eliminating gas stoves and one of them does not involve a federal agency or an Act of Congress.
Hank Hill is rolling his eyes though.
I agree with this guy:
https://twitter.com/damienslash/status/1613908728830480385?s=20&t=NVF_BGPVWT4bEk9UjXfcfA
I am afraid there are more than two types of people in the world. One of those types is idiots: People either too stupid (rare) or too lazy (common) to think (maybe 20 to 30% of the population). These people can be got to vote. The GOP with its unpopular policy mix needs those votes desperately. Bullshit like this is the time tested way to get these votes. Ergo they keep doing this.