Was Robert Aaron Long motivated by anti-Asian racism when he went on his killing rampage in Atlanta last week? Six of his eight victims were Asian massage parlor workers, so at first the answer seemed pretty obvious: Of course he was.
But then things got more complicated. Racist mass shooters are usually proud to acknowledge their racism, but Long said he didn't care about race. Others who knew him confirmed this. And unlike most racist attackers, he didn't have a Facebook page full of racial fulminations or a Twitter feed that retweeted anti-Asian hate speech. At a conscious level, at least, Long really did seem to be motivated mostly by misogyny and sex obsessions.
And yet, there's still the blunt fact that six of his eight victims were Asian, and Long carried out his rampage at a time when anti-Asian hate crimes had been all over the news. Is it really plausible that this was just a coincidence?
That's debatable, but the bare facts nonetheless suggest that anti-Asian racism really wasn't a major factor in the shootings. I accept this, more or less, and yet I've come to realize that I don't care. Since I'm normally committed to facts above all else, what explains this?
I've been pondering this, and the best I can come up with is a twofold explanation. First, we really don't know anything for sure. And since it was Asian women who Long used to satisfy his reviled sex obsession, it hardly seems plausible that anti-Asian sentiment wasn't swirling around somewhere in his diseased mind.
Second, there is still the bare fact that regardless of anything else, it was Asian women who were primarily Long's victims and he did carry out his killings at a time when anti-Asian hate crimes were on the rise and getting lots of news coverage. All by itself, that seems like enough justification to use the killings as a very high profile way of bringing attention to anti-Asian violence. That's just fundamentally more important than playing angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin over Long's precise mental state.
I realize how inadequate this seems. But for better or worse, it's where I find myself right now.
The Introduction of https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7518378/ may have some bearing on all this.
If Atlanta sex workers are predominantly Asian it affects our analysis. If sex workers in the US are now disproportionately Asian, it might also tell us something about US perceptions of Asians.
Stanley Kubrick & Luther Campbell are history's greatest monsters.
& really, Fresh Kid Ice should have known better!
Yes, but the fact that the majority of sex workers are Asians does not tell us anything about his motivation or perception.
This.
Maybe he was just out to get sex workers and not acting out of racism, but that a high proportion of sex workers are of asian origin (if true) is a kind of structural racism. So it might not be so far off the mark to use this incident to call attention to anti-asian racism
I think it's kind of a mixed bag. We don't know that the majority of sex workers in Atlanta are Asian -- just the ones that he frequented. This may mean he has an Asian fetish, or it may be that these were the only places he knew about, or it may be that he wanted to go where he assumed the workers didn't speak English.
Usually, for the affected population, the worry about a hate crime or a racially motivated crime is that it's indiscriminate. If you're a member of the targeted group, you're in danger. Which is why cops (like the cops in Atlanta) often try to immediately rule out the idea of racial motivation if they can, so the population doesn't feel targeted.
This type of thing happens in New York all the time. The diamond district is dominated by Hassidic Jews. Whenever there is a robbery homicide there, the first question is, "Was this an anti-Semitic crime? Should all Jews feel afraid?" And when the cops answer, "No, Jews were not the target. He just killed the guy because he wanted to steal the diamonds." And then -- in opposition to all normal human behavior and our own religious ethics-- we Jews all feel a little bit better because we know we're not at risk.
Now clearly in this scenario, the guy didn't have any great love for Jews. He just murdered one after all. And there are non-Jewish diamond merchants, and he chose to target a Jew, so maybe there's something there. But I think this situation is a pretty close parallel. The murderer may have had some deep-seated racial prejudices, but his targets seemed to be sex workers, so the cops wanted to make that clear to
This whole argument actually pokes a certain type of hole into the rhetoric of structural racism. Structural racism exists, in the sense that there are systemic flaws that result in discrimination. But "structural racism" can't be a motive, because the whole idea of a structural problem is that it's a flaw in the system, separate from overt discrimination (although one can work in tandem with the other.) It's a result, not a motive. If "structural racism" were called "structural bias," this would be a lot less confusing.
In this particular case, this makes a big difference, because nobody knows quite what they're arguing about. Was the loss of these 6 women a tragedy for the Asian American community? Of course. Did the person who did it deserve the maximum penalty? Yes, there were no extenuating circumstances. But -- and this is a big point -- was he specifically
Sorry, didn't mean the send the draft! Feel free to ignore my incomplete thought.
A part of me dislikes spending too much time delving into the detailed motivation of people who are clearly irrational and psychotic.
Totally agree with @J. Frank Parnell here
I don't really care what the killer's motivations and impulses were, beyond what could help avoid similar things in the future (and that is probably better left to experts)
But if it causes examination of possible racism, then it at least is something good coming out of this horrible incident
Here's two bits worth: I think you're on-target when you observe that the shooter was a regular patron of Asian sex workers. There is a fetishization of Asian women among some white men, especially in regards to sex. It seems to me very likely that this shooter was one.
It is possible that he didn't embark on his shooting spree with the thought in mind to go kill Asians, but instead with the intention to go kill sexual temptation--which he associated with Asian women.
His racism may not have been his immediate motivator, but it was a factor.
People who claim not to be racists usually are. In fact most in not all of us are. We are just more or less aware of the fact and more or less successful in keeping our prejudices from influencing our behavior. Hence: When in doubt call it a hate crime.
As racism is pervasive but normally does not produce acts of violence, criminal law usually focuses on the violent action and the clearest evidence of motive, and not the racial prejudices of an attacker who motivations are not clearly racial. That is, avoid calling anything a hate crime unless there is clear compelling evidence for that.
Are you a racist?
He had a “sex addiction” to the extent he sought treatment, which apparently didn’t help, as his parents ended up evicting him due to his porn addiction etc.
He attacked almost exclusively women, whom he blamed for his addiction, at sites where he had sought to satisfy his “ addiction.” Yes, they were Asian—quite a lot of the “spas” around here in Atlanta are/-and again, these were the spas to which he had reportedly gone (it would be interesting to know more about the sites in Florida to which he was headed).
Certainly there is anti-Asian motivation here that needs to be called out but isn’t it clear his primary motivation was hatred of women? When will that make the Sunday talk shows?
I feel like Christianist cultural aspect is being underappreciated here. His father is a youth pastor so I suspect his "treatment" had a strong Christian/shaming component to it. What he and his parents consider a "sex addiction" is probably something most of us would call fairly normal 21 year old horniness finding a release in porn. Still could have unhealthy aspects but that doesn't make it an addiction. Blaming women as temptresses for men overwhelmed by their hormones is a core part of that culture and I suspect that was the bigger part driving him. He should be held responsible for his actions -- with hate crime charges if the evidence supports it -- but let's shine a harsh light on his church and his parents too.
Contra Richard Spencer's Theory of Acceptable Race Pollution, even the incels are finding out you won't necessarily get lucky even though Asians are construed among the United Right as docile & pliant.
So, of course, this sexual-race fetishist shooter saw his crime stimulated if not motivated by race.
I'm thinking that the rise in anti-Asian violence is similar to the rise in anti-Semitic violence -- in both cases, you have Fox and the ex-President attacking China, and Jewish associated immigration groups, respectively. And these statements incite crazy people into acting violently. Hopefully with a sane president, the level of incitement will drop.
FWIW, I'm *not* convinced that the Atlanta shooter was motivated by racism. He seems to be a deranged evangelical who couldn't deal with thoughts of sex.
Even if the Atlanta shooter was motivated by racism, I don't think that treating this event as indicative of life in America for Asians makes sense, though. I live about 1000 feet from Tree of Life, and as horrible as that attack was, it simply doesn't represent the mainstream Jewish experience, nor did it really make me fearful for being Jewish, in Pittsburgh or elsewhere. I blame Trump, right wing media, and of course the shooter for these events, not "American society."
Look up Pablo S. Torre* & Mina Kimes** from ESPN discussing this on Around the Horn.
*Filipino-American.
**Korean-American.
The key point seems to me to be the mental problems created and exploited by fundamentalist religion, that is really what people should be talking about.
That's ... a bit in the future, I'm afraid.
Seems like any disagreements are over nuances of definition. Was he motivated primarily by hatred of Asians? Almost certainly not. Did he regard Asians as inferior, and did that attitude contribute in significant part to his actions? Obviously so. Does the latter qualify him as a "racist?" I would say certainly yes, but the question begs definition. Does it mean his crimes qualify as racial (vs., say, anti-woman) hate crimes? That would seem to be getting into the weeds of legal language and precedent.
But in any case, there is no doubt that anti-Asian racism -- individual and systemic -- figures very importantly in this tragedy, and there shouldn't be any question about it being used to call out the issue.
The Atlanta Massage Shooter has big Joseph Paul Franklin Energy.
Misogyny should be equally called out
I got this from Raw Story:
"Despite the denials, the killings are a hate crime that exists at the intersection of misogyny, xenophobia and racism, and underpinning it is the toxicity of Evangelical purity culture. Long was a longtime member of Crabapple First Baptist Church, a Southern Baptist Church in Macon, and reportedly told police that he viewed the people who worked at the spas as "temptations" he needed to "eliminate," indicating that he set out with the intention of attacking Asian women whom he perceived to be sex workers. Police have given no indication that the victims were sex workers.
"Evangelical purity culture is dangerous in that, despite promising the opposite, it positions women as dehumanized, sexual objects — a walking collection of body parts that can provoke temptation — and that it is their responsibility to keep men from straying.
This is especially true for women of color, who have long been exoticized through the church's particular brand of colonialist missionary work. "
https://www.rawstory.com/white-evangelicals-2651156340/
That is a great description. It's not the in your face racism, just the plain old everyday racism.
The "hate crime" discussion always switching to "sex", and the shooter is a victim, as opposed to focusing on the actual victims of a mass murder.
Sorry, but what did those victims have to do with race??? They were his hangouts. See your problem???? Guy was raised in religious conditions that created him.
Well, this is your hangout, Shootie, & you hate us.
This guy was raised as a white evangelical to believe he had to control his sexual lust to avoid defiling women. The implicit message he took was that defiling women was bad, but not as quite as bad with an Asian woman.
Inscrutability: confirmed.
Repeating what others have said:
Assuming that at least a few of the spa workers provided extra services (I heard the cops said there were no complaints/problems at the spas and the white woman who was shot just wanted a plain Ol’ message), the shooter’s racism took hold much earlier. I mean, there must be some white prostitutes in the area, right? But apparently he visited only Asians. It’s that pre-shooting racism that may have led to the massacre.
Magic City scene.
We don’t know that he visited only Asians. We don’t know where he was headed in Florida
True. But he didn’t shoot up any white prostitues.
He didn't use them. He was given extra services by the Asian women owned businesses.
America's Long Haul Truckers rise up as one & inveigh, "Loners will not replace us".
But he may have intended to do so, had he reached Florida. Would that not alter the interpretation of his motivation?
Apologies to the community hurt by this incident, but it doesn't really matter if it's a hate crime. It's mass murder. That should give prosecutors enough ammunition to bring him to justice.
In Brian Kemp's Georgia?
Long is just a thirstier Rittenhouse.
^^^^^^^^Hello America^^^^^^^^^^
First time caller, long time citizen...
Nope, it wasn't "racism". It was self-hatred, so he shot up 3 places he went, including a white man who was a patron as well. Proggies trying too hard again.
In Shooter's world, white man gun criminals are always lone wolves.
Only Black gun crime is indicative of sociocultural rot & the breakdown of family values.
Come on, you're leaving out his hatred of Jews, Muslims, Latinos....
True.
I can only imagine what a place Shootie will be in if, come January 2022, Syro-Afro-Salvadoran woman Hala Ayala is Lt. Gov. of Virginia.
Uh, so. If they support the American workers and stop global capitalism. My guess she is a neoliberal spousing identity politics no different than Republican zionism.
I could care less about family values. It was this dudes upbringing of obsessing over family values that caused this mess.
In answer to your question about the Va lt. gov. candidate, Ayala is actually #OurRevolution adjacent, which is very much the anti-identitarian left.
Self-hatred that was inextricably tied up with hatred of women
So we're all getting crazed about anti-Asian violence because of this incident that is, at best, indirectly connected to racism.
Meanwhile, two of his eight victims were non-Asians. This fact has been so ignored that I actually have not been able to find in my usual news sources any indication of who they were. I suppose they're just chopped liver?
I know that in the current climate some people will find this comment offensive, but I'm going to say it anyway. Unless all lives matter, in the end, no lives matter.
They were a couple who went for a day spa together.
Black lives matter too
Asian lives matter too
etc.
Meanwhile my co-worker Joe wasn't confronted by a co-worker named Karen because he was a guy coughing days before the pandemic shutdown. He was confronted by Karen because he was a Korean American coughing days before the pandemic shutdown.
@Clyde Schechter
Sorry you missed it. The authorities did not release all the info right away, but once they did it was easy to find out the names of all the victims.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/19/atlanta-spa-shootings-victims-named
Unconscious bias is still racism.
Kevin, can you explain why you felt it necessary to use the Atlanta Shooters name? It has appeared to me that the WP and NYT both were avoiding giving him the notoriety he sought.
And yet you led with it. Again why?
What puzzles me is the sexual aspect when the shooter was 21 yo and all the victims were 50 or over except the one customer at 33. Seems there may have been some mother issues here.
Think of the darkest timeline version of Beavis on the tour bus pulling into Washington, D.C., in Beavis n' Butt-head Do America.
The Cherokee Co spa was the first place he went. He shot two older ladies and customers. In Atlanta, he shot two older ladies at one place and an older lady at the next place.
This indicates that 1) older ladies answer the door at Asian message parlors and 2) that he didn't feel compelled to walk one room over and kill the sex workers.
Amber Ruffin:
https://youtu.be/cZGj9QjxtdY
She's been great ever since Late Nite.
Her segments with her writers room lesbian colleague for "Jokes Seth Can't Tell" were always good. & Amber Says What was even better.
I'm so old that I can remember when Christian churches preached on how it was necessary to "bring the good news" to sinners and unbelievers, to bring them to Christianity. If this church-obsessed Bible beater decided to slaughter the people he believed were "tempting" him instead of acting like an actual Christian himself, then he must not have regarded them as fully human.
That's racism. Add in misogyny. It's all there.
Why beat around the bush? Long killed 8 people because religion and his church in particular filled his brain full of mush. It's an age old and world wide problem.
Pat Robertson explains how the real criminal is a porn demon,
https://thebiznews.org/2021/03/21/robertson-demon-atlanta/
Picture it!
+1 sem--... I mean, demon, in Ed Helms at the end of the Hangover, Pt. 2
His parents kicked him out because of his porn addiction. It's like he was bragging about it.
To get a bit too dry about this, if you apply Bayesian inference to what little I know about these murders, I reach pretty much the same conclusion: there's no direct evidence that race was a primary motivation, but it's certainly reasonable to think that whatever was going on inside this guy's head, race played a role.
You have the right to express your thoughts on any matter. But consider:
What's the value of White people telling Asians whether race was an issue in a White guy's motivation in committing a heinous act against Asians?
+1 Meet the Press panel of three whites* & a Black** to discuss anti-Asian discrimination
*One of whom was Peggy Noonan, who has only ever loved one brown thing -- Ronald Reagan's shoe.
**Noted "Hillary is worse than Trump" Jill Stein voter, Eddie Glaude, Jr. (Surprised he didn't bring up Buddhist monks or Indonesian donors.)
White fragility is a hell of a drug
So is black fragility
Shootie, the expert on black psycology. I know, one of your closest friends is black.
Li'l Peep & Xxxtentacion -- Together in Eternity.
Do men patronize only sex workers whose race they despise? If so, the progressives shouldn't be advocating the legalization of prostitution since it would definitionally promote hate.
It's almost as if men never had sex with women they held as inferior or subhuman or even raped captive slaves.
Thomas Jefferson has entered the chat.
Yes
I cannot help but think that the recent trial of Robert Kraft (owner of the New England Patriots) had something to do with this incident.
Kraft of course went to Orchids of Asia Day spa - yes that is the actual name - and apparently was a satisfied customer. Thee was even surveillance video of the incident but that was sealed by the Judge in Kraft's solicitation for prostitution case - which I believe was eventually dismissed.
To me it makes no difference if the victims were mostly Asian - or black - or Polish - or female - or Christian. This guy apparently passed a back ground check and obtained a weapon the day prior to committing mass murder.
Now, does this guy need to be hung in a white, Christian male only church to teach the masses a lesson? We rely on out court system to be totally bereft of any ideological leanings when issuing verdicts or handing out sentencing.
Why do we get wrapped up in victim identity politics in the reporting?
Focusing exclusively on whether this was really an anti-Asian hate crime has allowed the media to avoid talking about what is, imho, the bigger story: that this was an act of religious terrorism carried out by an violent Christian bent on "purifying" his community of sexual sin. Had this been a Muslim, we'd all be completely loosing our shit, talking about where and how he was "radicalized," and what responsibility other Muslims bear for not turning him in earlier; whether or not we need to revisit a ban on Muslim immigration, etc. But he was a good, white Baptist boy, apparently, so, you know -- just a crazy "lone wolf" battling his inner demons as white, male terrorists always are.
Why should Long be treated any differently than his economically anxious forebear Eric Robert Rudolph, who also terrorized [sic] Atlanta?
It wouldn't be surprising if he hasn't been reading some crazy stuff online and was indeed a lot like Rudolph. But the police will need to release some information for us to know.
Good catch on the religious angle. There's something wrong with that "church". First, apparently it indoctrinated that murderer. Second, its claim to be "Christian" would make Jesus weep. And finally, what ever became of helping the sinner, God's love, and forgiveness? Did that "church" even believe in proselytizing? Conversion?
Or was it all just hate, hate, hate?
Gandi once commented he had no issues with Christianity, only with Christians.
A courageous and sound post, with which I have one quibble. As to the possibility that race was not actually a key motivation, you ask the rhetorical question, " Is it really plausible that this was just a coincidence?" It take it that your answer is no. I would say yes, it is; a long way from certain, but plausible. Not many want to hear that. Sometimes intellectual honesty is hard.
I think race played a role here in the same way it would have had a gunman shot a bunch of people at a postal facility. A large number of USPS workers are African American, so the chances of them being disproportionately victimized by an attack on a postal facility is high. This guy targeted "day spas" he suspected (or knew) offered sexual services -- the majority of which, at least in this part of the country, are staffed by Asian women. Would he have done this had he known most of the staff were white? We can't know of course, but I suspect yes. He was a zealot out to punish whores and temptresses -- probably regardless of their ethnicity.
"He was a zealot out to punish whores and temptresses -- probably regardless of their ethnicity."
He didn't kill any of the sex workers, just the older ladies that opened the door.
We will always have folks with messed up brains. Can't do much about that. We can do something about GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS GUNS!!!
I don't know if racism directly had to do with it, but indirectly it did. The white male expectation with east and southeast Asian women is that the latter will be racist. Namely by preferring, and being sexually pliable with, white men. I can well imagine the shooter not being racist against Asians at all, but being disappointed and angry that he is not given the preferential sexual treatment he expects Asian women to give to whites.